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More bosses than 4 or 5 in an op?

tehjifbo's Avatar


tehjifbo
09.12.2012 , 12:01 PM | #1
Anyone else want more than 4-5 bosses in one operation. My guild has cleared all content as it released in the first couple weeks it released. (minus Nightmare EV when it was an RNG bad dream). Just wondering what you other PVE'rs think.

JamieM's Avatar


JamieM
09.12.2012 , 01:04 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by tehjifbo View Post
Anyone else want more than 4-5 bosses in one operation. My guild has cleared all content as it released in the first couple weeks it released. (minus Nightmare EV when it was an RNG bad dream). Just wondering what you other PVE'rs think.
They won't make them larger than 6 I don't think. Look at it from a purely commercial perspective (as EA does):

In order to appeal to the casual pick up crowd they need to be doable in a few hours max, otherwise PUGs and more casual raiders will lose interest and likely lack the organisation to get all players back for another night of raiding. Sure I'd love larger, more epic raids (Kara and BT were two of my favourite all time raids) but I don't think BioWare are going down that route. Even WoW don't go down that route too much anymore as it isn't as appealing to new players. Shorter raids are far more accessible and less likely to scare off casuals. It's more or less the same principle with smaller raid sizes. Less organisation, less work, less time eaten up, more chance of people trying out and doing Ops and keeping their sub going.

Also this model allows them to release content more regularly. More bosses means more potential for delays and more bleeding of subs in the release interim.

Petnil's Avatar


Petnil
09.12.2012 , 04:06 PM | #3
icecrown citadell in WoW had 15 ? or thereabout bosses. It was cleared by pugs.At least on the big pve servers. When you get to know the raids 4 bosses just is too short. I know wow did the same in the last raid in cata. 2 linked raids of 4 bosses. Still it didn´t feel right. Firelands felt much more like a raid.

The way i see it, a raid should last a couple of hours. If you only have 45min to play, do your daily hardmode and a few daily quests. For most people playing mmo´s they can find 1 or 2 nights a week they can play long enough for a decent raid (longer than just 45min)

Gairnok's Avatar


Gairnok
09.12.2012 , 04:11 PM | #4
More Bosses, Longer raids, I'm all for it!

Operations should take more than an hour, it's not a flashpoint.

Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
09.12.2012 , 04:35 PM | #5
i'm not against raid having 4 or 5 boss but ...

a full tier of content in 4 of 5 boss? no, a full tier should at least be 10 boss. Make it two raid dungeon of say, 4 and 6 boss, fine, or make it winged dungeon, have us follow two stories, ok.

but last tier was 5 boss (denova + pilgrim), this tier is 5 boss too, this is too short.
I hope it's not gonna be 5 boss until spring 2013.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
09.12.2012 , 06:23 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Petnil View Post
icecrown citadell in WoW had 15 ? or thereabout bosses.
ICC was also staggered unlock content (the developers released ICC with only a small subset of bosses and content available that were the unlocked a couple weeks after the first down of the previous gatekeeper boss). It also provided *massive* buffs to players running it towards the end of WotLK's lifespan so that more players could do it, and, even then, it took a while to punch through. Pugging it was completely out of the question until it had been out for so long that it was on farm status even for pugs.

Other similar raid content, like Naxxramas and Ulduar, were released straight out with large numbers of bosses (Naxx was 13, iirc, and Ulduar was 12, including the bonus bosses) and those weren't puggable until they were no longer top tier content so that they could be done with a few carries. The only times I ever saw current raids and other large group content done by pugs commonly was when the size of the content was small enough that, even with a few people to teach fights to, the entire thing could be accomplished in a couple hours (this generally meant 4-5 bosses per raid lockout) and entry level gear for the content was readily available (meaning that a majority of people were geared for it since not everyone is up for farming rep and/or daily quests just to get prepped for high end content). When I played WoW (I quit before Deathwing), I don't think I ever saw a successful Firelands pug; I saw a couple guilds runs that brought in a pug or 2 to fill out rosters, but never a full pug that did more than take on trash. BoT and BWD, on the other hand, I saw get pugged reasonably often when they were current content.

Bioware has taken the approach that they want all of their content to be feasibly puggable, mainly because it allows for casuals without raiding guilds to see the content. It's because of this that Story Mode ops are so friggin' easy, and ops, as a whole, are comparatively "short" (for all intents and purposes, they're designed much the same way as a FP but with bigger numbers and twice the number of people expected; 4-5 bosses with trash in between). Story Mode is easy because it should be able to be done without too much organization and middling fight knowledge, and the entire thing should end within 2 hours of it starting. That's pretty much what you gotta do to allow for pugs.

This isn't to say that BW couldn't add a couple bosses to content while still preserving its puggability. The difficulty and organizational requirements of a boss are set by the developers, and, for Story Mode, should be relatively static when creating content. The length of a piece of content is set as well, largely with trash placement as opposed to lengthening fights (which has a tendency to make the fight harder and require more organization since there is less margin for error). By removing a majority of trash such that there is only 1-2 trash packs between each boss (rather than the 4-5 that BW tends to prefer), you could cut down the time-til-completion long enough to add 1-2 more bosses to the lineup (this is actually how BWD managed to have 6 bosses but still take the same amount of time as BoT which had 4; you didn't waste nearly as much time on trash so there was more time for bosses).

In a further discussion of this matter, there is some question as to whether Bioware would *want* to add additional bosses to their raids. More bosses means players expecting more loot and more loot means players gearing up faster. As it stands now, and how it will likely remain, is that BW wants to have each boss provide a distinct pairing of tokens (boots and legs, belt and offhand, chest and gloves, and helmet and weapon, if I remember how EC does it) that you can predict and then an additional random piece from a different subset (implant and/or ear, and armoring from Kephess; though I could be wrong on some of those since I pay so little attention to all but the last). If they added an additional boss, it would confuse their drop design by either pulling tokens away from another boss, which would then have to be filled with other random drops. The only thing that they could really add would be relics and enhancement/mods, and it would be difficult to add more than 1-2 bosses (which might have what players would soon feel to be anemic loot tables on some bosses) without having some bosses drop the same tokens.

Either way, I'm relatively happy with how BW has been developing their ops content. I would like there to be less trash because, honestly, I don't find trash fun or interesting beyond the first couple times I've cleared it. It gets old too quickly and really only exists to make clear times longer. If they removed most of the trash, they could probably add an additional boss, but, more than that, and you have problems with loot tables between the bosses remaining interesting and distinct.
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