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Shield Spec: Taunts and Guard


Miallen's Avatar


Miallen
09.04.2012 , 12:26 PM | #1
I have a question for everyone, mainly just some random things that I haven't managed to find the right answers for.

Guard: It works outside of 15m, yes? I read that damage redirection only works in PvP, is this also true? Otherwise, our guard is ok on anyone at any range?

Taunts: What would the greatest Threat Generation rotation be? Should I start in with heavy DPS, then start dropping taunts? Or is there some finesse to sustaining heavy aggro, especially at the start of a fight?

Thanks for your feedback guys.
-Miallen
"Welcome men, you are now part of Operation Human Shield."
Miallen | Merrak | Essani
Outer Rim Templars | Guildmaster
. End Game Ops - PvP - Social - Leveling

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
09.04.2012 , 01:28 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Miallen View Post
Guard: It works outside of 15m, yes? I read that damage redirection only works in PvP, is this also true? Otherwise, our guard is ok on anyone at any range?
No, Guard, for every tank, requires that the guarded target be within the given range to benefit from the effects of Guard. If the individual is out of it, it will not remove Guard; it will simply place a paired buff on them that removes all of the effects of Guard until they get back in range of the tank. As to the damage reduction, it still applies in PvE but *only* the damage reduction and the threat reduction apply. The damage redirection (wherein you take damage for the guarded target) only applies with damage dealt by players (this is to make up for the fact that aggro doesn't exist in PvP).

Quote:
Taunts: What would the greatest Threat Generation rotation be? Should I start in with heavy DPS, then start dropping taunts? Or is there some finesse to sustaining heavy aggro, especially at the start of a fight?
Beyond the first 10 seconds of a fight, threat should be a complete non-issue. It's only during these opening seconds that DPS has even a remote chance of not completely being eclipsed by tank threat generation (assuming that both tank and DPS are in similar gear levels; if the DPS is vastly overgeared, the tank can have threat problems the entire time). In general, if I can't open up with Mortar Volley, I Storm or simply run in, shooting every individual target I can with Ion Pulse/Energy Blast, Hammer Shot and/or HiB at least once (HiB has the AoE spread which can speed things up a bit but requires a DoT so it's not always possible; Ion Pulse/Energy Blast are good for generating your absorb stacks early when trash DPS is more intense), but you can also add Explosive Surge if you're not near any CC, simply to get some baseline threat on the target (re: get them off of the healer). After that I move on to the single target threat gen on the biggest threat (which, hopefully, the DPS have been ignoring in favor of standards and strongs).

The basic priority for ST threat gen is Stockstrike>HiB>Ion Pulse>Hammer Shot. Energy Blast should be used on (even if you're full on ammo, you can just use Ion Pulse once and you'll still get the full benefit of the ammo regain), Explosive Surge if you're not near any CC'd targets, have the free cast, and aren't at full ammo, and your various AoEs where appropriate (some people swear by Sticky Grenade, but I do not; Mortar Volley and Pulse Cannon are all I've ever needed).

Beyond your actual threat gen, it's important to remember that taunts, both Neural Jolt and Sonic Round, have 2 effects on them. The first is that they force the target to attack you for 6 seconds, which you probably recognize pretty easily, and the second is that they immediately place your existing threat at the amount needed to pull threat off of the current highest threat on their aggro table, even if this person is already you (which is percentage based upon your current threat, meaning that the more threat you have, the more aggro taunt provides). Using your taunt as an opener or within the first few GCDs of a fight, before substantial threat has been generated by healing (on targets that aren't attacked or have been CCd the entire fight, healing threat will pretty much always be on top) or dps, you're pretty much wasting the taunt unless you're also punching the target for the 6 seconds it is forced to attack you (elsewise, it's likely to just go back to beating someone else after the time is up). This is one of the reasons why threat is a non-issue after the first 10 seconds or so of a fight: after this time, most enemies have an appreciable amount of threat on them that a single taunt is going to provide you with more than enough threat to keep you above any potential competitors for at least as long as it takes for your taunt to recharge (and presumably use it again if you're really worried about threat). If there are no threat drops for you to worry about, taunting on CD will, on its own, generate a *vast* majority of any possible threat you could generate over the course of a boss fight.
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Miallen's Avatar


Miallen
09.04.2012 , 01:55 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
No, Guard, for every tank, requires that the guarded target be within the given range to benefit from the effects of Guard. If the individual is out of it, it will not remove Guard; it will simply place a paired buff on them that removes all of the effects of Guard until they get back in range of the tank. As to the damage reduction, it still applies in PvE but *only* the damage reduction and the threat reduction apply. The damage redirection (wherein you take damage for the guarded target) only applies with damage dealt by players (this is to make up for the fact that aggro doesn't exist in PvP).

Beyond the first 10 seconds of a fight, threat should be a complete non-issue. It's only during these opening seconds that DPS has even a remote chance of not completely being eclipsed by tank threat generation (assuming that both tank and DPS are in similar gear levels; if the DPS is vastly overgeared, the tank can have threat problems the entire time). In general, if I can't open up with Mortar Volley, I Storm or simply run in, shooting every individual target I can with Ion Pulse/Energy Blast, Hammer Shot and/or HiB at least once (HiB has the AoE spread which can speed things up a bit but requires a DoT so it's not always possible; Ion Pulse/Energy Blast are good for generating your absorb stacks early when trash DPS is more intense), but you can also add Explosive Surge if you're not near any CC, simply to get some baseline threat on the target (re: get them off of the healer). After that I move on to the single target threat gen on the biggest threat (which, hopefully, the DPS have been ignoring in favor of standards and strongs).

The basic priority for ST threat gen is Stockstrike>HiB>Ion Pulse>Hammer Shot. Energy Blast should be used on (even if you're full on ammo, you can just use Ion Pulse once and you'll still get the full benefit of the ammo regain), Explosive Surge if you're not near any CC'd targets, have the free cast, and aren't at full ammo, and your various AoEs where appropriate (some people swear by Sticky Grenade, but I do not; Mortar Volley and Pulse Cannon are all I've ever needed).

Beyond your actual threat gen, it's important to remember that taunts, both Neural Jolt and Sonic Round, have 2 effects on them. The first is that they force the target to attack you for 6 seconds, which you probably recognize pretty easily, and the second is that they immediately place your existing threat at the amount needed to pull threat off of the current highest threat on their aggro table, even if this person is already you (which is percentage based upon your current threat, meaning that the more threat you have, the more aggro taunt provides). Using your taunt as an opener or within the first few GCDs of a fight, before substantial threat has been generated by healing (on targets that aren't attacked or have been CCd the entire fight, healing threat will pretty much always be on top) or dps, you're pretty much wasting the taunt unless you're also punching the target for the 6 seconds it is forced to attack you (elsewise, it's likely to just go back to beating someone else after the time is up). This is one of the reasons why threat is a non-issue after the first 10 seconds or so of a fight: after this time, most enemies have an appreciable amount of threat on them that a single taunt is going to provide you with more than enough threat to keep you above any potential competitors for at least as long as it takes for your taunt to recharge (and presumably use it again if you're really worried about threat). If there are no threat drops for you to worry about, taunting on CD will, on its own, generate a *vast* majority of any possible threat you could generate over the course of a boss fight.
Thanks Kit.
I haven't had much issue keeping threat once the fight is underway, it just always seems I'm fighting off the DPS to maintain it at the start. Aside from that, starting off my VG, it's been a different beast for me (BH Geared Commando Assault to Rakata/Columi mixed VG Shield). My biggest concern is that I'm wanting to make sure that I'm doing everything to hold aggro I can, thus the questions. I've ran a couple Ops, but I am so far from knowing all I need to know about the class, even still.

Thank you for the suggestions and things to keep in mind. I'll definitely give it a run tonight.
"Welcome men, you are now part of Operation Human Shield."
Miallen | Merrak | Essani
Outer Rim Templars | Guildmaster
. End Game Ops - PvP - Social - Leveling

Spatology's Avatar


Spatology
09.11.2012 , 11:06 PM | #4
PvP benefits require you be within the 15 yards. All pve benefits are not dependant on range.

You wont get teh dmg transferal for pvp unless you are within 15 yards.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
09.12.2012 , 12:59 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Spatology View Post
All pve benefits are not dependant on range
The PvE benefits *do* require a target be within range to benefit from them. It's been tested and confirmed several times. There's even a debuff that points it out.
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Spatology's Avatar


Spatology
09.14.2012 , 01:40 AM | #6
I believe the buff does indeed point out...that "damadge won't be redirected"(the pvp benefit) Idk perhaps I'm a loon

SafeJungleFever's Avatar


SafeJungleFever
09.14.2012 , 05:40 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

Beyond your actual threat gen, it's important to remember that taunts, both Neural Jolt and Sonic Round, have 2 effects on them. The first is that they force the target to attack you for 6 seconds, which you probably recognize pretty easily, and the second is that they immediately place your existing threat at the amount needed to pull threat off of the current highest threat on their aggro table, even if this person is already you (which is percentage based upon your current threat, meaning that the more threat you have, the more aggro taunt provides). Using your taunt as an opener or within the first few GCDs of a fight, before substantial threat has been generated by healing (on targets that aren't attacked or have been CCd the entire fight, healing threat will pretty much always be on top) or dps, you're pretty much wasting the taunt unless you're also punching the target for the 6 seconds it is forced to attack you (elsewise, it's likely to just go back to beating someone else after the time is up). This is one of the reasons why threat is a non-issue after the first 10 seconds or so of a fight: after this time, most enemies have an appreciable amount of threat on them that a single taunt is going to provide you with more than enough threat to keep you above any potential competitors for at least as long as it takes for your taunt to recharge (and presumably use it again if you're really worried about threat). If there are no threat drops for you to worry about, taunting on CD will, on its own, generate a *vast* majority of any possible threat you could generate over the course of a boss fight.
Wow thanks for that. Seriously. As a new tank and new to video games, let alone MMOs, I absolutely loved this. Not only was it clearly written, but it also helped me understand 'threat' and taunt mechanics far better than anything else i've read.

SafeJungleFever's Avatar


SafeJungleFever
09.14.2012 , 05:41 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The PvE benefits *do* require a target be within range to benefit from them. It's been tested and confirmed several times. There's even a debuff that points it out.
I believe the threat-reduction does work at range.

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
09.14.2012 , 05:49 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by SafeJungleFever View Post
I believe the threat-reduction does work at range.
you belive wrong. it has been proven, plus only PT and Marauders are worth guard any way.
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Spatology's Avatar


Spatology
09.20.2012 , 12:15 AM | #10
go read your guard tool tip. the threat reduction and 5% dmg reduction have no range associated with their buffs. The debuff comes up as an easy way for a tank to spot if their guarded healer is in range, at 15 yards.