This game could learn from SWG

STAR WARS: The Old Republic
This game could learn from SWG

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Goretzu

09.04.2012 , 05:15 AM \| #381
Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir Except that the market was growing, and the relatively new game was not. I dunno that the MMORPG market was really growing then. Look at any MMORPG of that time, they weren't beating Everquest, or even mostly coming close to Everquest. WoW did, but WoW is and was, and always will be (most) likely a one off. Quote: Originally Posted by Moaky Some of us did try to like the game....and it still sucked. Fair enough if you played it. I completely agree that it had many flaws (although it was also it's terrible mismanagement that cost it a lot of players). However as I've said several times in this thread where SWG was weak SWTOR is strong and where SWTOR is weak SWG was strong........ so there's plenty to take from SWG to make SWTOR a much better game.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too? Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

anstalt

09.04.2012 , 05:44 AM \| #382
Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu I completely agree that it had many flaws (although it was also it's terrible mismanagement that cost it a lot of players). However as I've said several times in this thread where SWG was weak SWTOR is strong and where SWTOR is weak SWG was strong........ so there's plenty to take from SWG to make SWTOR a much better game. Thats the ultimate point of this thread really. SWG had some really terrible implementation and was overly complex, meaning many casual gamers just couldn't get in to it. However, the game was built on amazing concepts, concepts that captured the gaming minds of many MMORPG players and have left us wanting more ever since the CU/NGE. SW:TOR, on the other hand, has excellent implementation values but the game is built upon completely unoriginal, lackluster concepts that inspire no-one and are not long-lasting. If the development team at Bioware were to take the core concepts from SWG and implement them in SW:TOR with the sort of professionalism they have shown so far, then SW:TOR would be a much, MUCH better game and have some serious longevity. So, whether you liked SWG or not, most people will agree that the core concepts of that game are a great foundation for any modern MMO: Crafted Endgame Loot Player Driven PvP Player Driven Endgame Content Player Driven Economy Dynamic PvE Questing Quests Scaling To Group Size Lots of Roleplaying Features Focus on Exploration Player Freedom The main point, if you didn't spot it already, is that the game focused on the players and what the players wanted to do, not on the developers and what they can churn out.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!

Goretzu

09.04.2012 , 05:51 AM \| #383
Quote: Originally Posted by anstalt Thats the ultimate point of this thread really. SWG had some really terrible implementation and was overly complex, meaning many casual gamers just couldn't get in to it. However, the game was built on amazing concepts, concepts that captured the gaming minds of many MMORPG players and have left us wanting more ever since the CU/NGE. SW:TOR, on the other hand, has excellent implementation values but the game is built upon completely unoriginal, lackluster concepts that inspire no-one and are not long-lasting. If the development team at Bioware were to take the core concepts from SWG and implement them in SW:TOR with the sort of professionalism they have shown so far, then SW:TOR would be a much, MUCH better game and have some serious longevity. So, whether you liked SWG or not, most people will agree that the core concepts of that game are a great foundation for any modern MMO: Crafted Endgame Loot Player Driven PvP Player Driven Endgame Content Player Driven Economy Dynamic PvE Questing Quests Scaling To Group Size Lots of Roleplaying Features Focus on Exploration Player Freedom The main point, if you didn't spot it already, is that the game focused on the players and what the players wanted to do, not on the developers and what they can churn out. Yup, the correct combination of both would make an amazing game. It's silly to talk about WoW beaters, but a game of that scope AND polish could be in the realms of WoW at least.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too? Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

ImperialSun

09.04.2012 , 05:53 AM \| #384
Quote: Originally Posted by anstalt Thats the ultimate point of this thread really. SWG had some really terrible implementation and was overly complex, meaning many casual gamers just couldn't get in to it. However, the game was built on amazing concepts, concepts that captured the gaming minds of many MMORPG players and have left us wanting more ever since the CU/NGE. SW:TOR, on the other hand, has excellent implementation values but the game is built upon completely unoriginal, lackluster concepts that inspire no-one and are not long-lasting. If the development team at Bioware were to take the core concepts from SWG and implement them in SW:TOR with the sort of professionalism they have shown so far, then SW:TOR would be a much, MUCH better game and have some serious longevity. So, whether you liked SWG or not, most people will agree that the core concepts of that game are a great foundation for any modern MMO: Crafted Endgame Loot Player Driven PvP Player Driven Endgame Content Player Driven Economy Dynamic PvE Questing Quests Scaling To Group Size Lots of Roleplaying Features Focus on Exploration Player Freedom The main point, if you didn't spot it already, is that the game focused on the players and what the players wanted to do, not on the developers and what they can churn out. Probably the best post in this thread...kudos. Driz

Devlonir

09.04.2012 , 06:09 AM \| #385
Anstalt, I agree that this game has improvement areas, some of which can be taken from SWG, but it seems we do not agree with where. Let me elaborate: Quote: Originally Posted by anstalt Crafted Endgame Loot Completely disagree. Although I see some slots as being filled by crafting as a good thing, like TOR has now, I dislike that people can get the best loot in game from, basicly, playing a singleplayer game. And that is what crafting is. If the Auction House for mats was a generated marketplace by a computer similation, it would be able to have this in a single player game without needing anyone else to finish. The second M in MMO is still multiplayer, and crafting has always been something you do alone. I am honestly glad modern MMO's move away from crafting as a way to the best gear, and more towards something to get cool, unique things from (like the cybertech speeders, or the Rakata gear armor crafters have) Quote: Player Driven PvP Player Driven Endgame Content Disagree here as well. Both basicly come down to: those with most time are the best. And that is not what keeps the masses. Although a few things can be done from time to time, I don't see this is where it should go as the major direction for PVP and PVE. Quote: Player Driven Economy This I agree with. Economy needs to be entirely player driven. A major cash sink should be other players, not the game itself. Reduce amount of money made through dailies, reduce cost of purely personal stuff like mod changing and bank slots, and increase incentive to trade with other players. Keep Legacy unlocks as a money sink, but remove day-to-day things like mod switching or levelling cost for a levelling char (almost everyone I know started level 50 broke because of levelling costs) The major reason for a lack of economy at this time is, in my eyes, the fact that you need almost 95% of your income just to do the things the game expects you to do. Quote: Dynamic PvE Questing Depending on definition of dynamic (aka, not area quests that go on and off like Guild Wars 2 has it) yes I agree. I especially like that in GW2, some quests can be done with different tasks. Like.. to defend someone's life.. you can either hold your ground and hold off waves of enemies, or you can try and escort them to safety. Quote: Quests Scaling To Group Size Agree, but it is already in game. Heroic 2s scale if you bring a 3rd of 4th player along. Would be nice to see this more often though! Quote: Lots of Roleplaying Features Agree here, the list of wishes is too long to say. Quote: Focus on Exploration Don't feel the need. It is not my personal taste. And seeing it is not the personal taste of many others, I'd say Focus is a bad word to use. Some more chances to explore would be nice though. The Datacrons were a nice start.. we need more exploration rewards. Quote: Player Freedom I honestly don't know what to make of this. Freedom is what you do with the room that is given you. I don't see the game stopping you from doing whatever you want within their framework.. so that is all the freedom you have within the game. The concept of 'player freedom' is very vague and very personal. I would want to focus on the aspect of choice. My major gripe in this game is that NPC's often wear nicer colorations or variants of gear than what is available to players. Make this gear available and craftable. Remove all greens from crafting tables and make every armor and weapon crafter able to only make oranges and (some) mods. The Orange armor system is a wonderful tool for player freedom, but it was limited way too much. Every item in game should be Orange. That has always been my stance and I still believe it. I still hope Bioware will one day rehash their entire gear database and just do this. I believe in the moddable armor system, the developers should as well and commit themselves fully to it. And you really don't do that if all the crafting recipes you learn from your trainers are greens..
"Cows go 'Moo', Dogs go 'Woof', MMO Players go 'The PVP is unbalanced!" - Yahthzee "I'm starting to get the feeling that BW and their MMO are not the dysfunctional ones." - Rafaman

quantumsheep

09.04.2012 , 06:19 AM \| #386
This, from Deewe on page 26 sums it up for me: "I'd say the first pillar of SW was not crafting, not even socialization and even less combat (player bounties) it was choice." In my own humble opinion, I believe that MMOs, being the social games that they are, offer us a fun way to express ourselves within the limits of the game world. When the game world offers you enough choice, you are better able to express yourself. Make your character truly one of a kind. Make them your own. Or at least give you that illusion I played SWG a lot pre-NGE. After that, my friends left, and in turn, I left too. I knew SWTOR wouldn't be like SWG. I read previews, watched the videos, etc etc But it seems odd to me, In a genre that puts lots of people together in one place, that choice and, dare I say it, 'freedom of expression' were completely overlooked in this new Star Wars MMO. The profession system in SWG was certainly interesting. You could mix and match. Before the NGE I had a dancing jedi, for example. With the introduction of character types come the NGE, I had to roll full jedi or full entertainer. There was no grey area anymore. The limits had been imposed, and choice was reduced. The crafting system was superb. If memory serves correctly, you could change the name of pretty much any object in SWG - starships, speeders, pets - even weapons! The crafting system allowed for a multitude of combinations to create some pretty unique outfits. The character creation stuff was also really detailed and advanced for its time. Like others, I spent a long time arranging the furniture in my houses. Getting it just right was fun, and it was something that really showed off your personality and, dare I say it, imagination. Housing was a statement of individuality. I'd argue that it's choice and freedom that's missing from SWTOR. This is what I miss most. Not the systems per se, not the game per se, but the way that you could express yourself through the options available. So I love SWTOR - really I do! I'll be paying for it till the servers shut down, I'm sure. I've played plenty of MMOs before, but I've not played WOW so theme park MMOs are pretty new to me. It feels fresh, but I can imagine if you've played other similarly constructed games you might be disappointed. But the lack of choice does irk me if I'm honest. Why can I not rename the items I make? Why can I not write a bio for my character? Why can no-one see my legacy tree but me? How is that expressing my Legacy? Why can I not name my ship? Why am I running around fleet with exactly the same companion as the next trooper? Why can't I rename them? In short, why do I have so few options to express myself? Not sure it'll work, but I'll sum up with a 'joke' if you'll indulge me. A jedi consular boards another consular's starship. As he looks around the ship, the first consular turns to the ships owner and says: "I love what you've done with the place". QS
The Progenitor Hicks /Soir/Quantumsheep/Gradius/Huddson/Galaga What I DO

ImperialSun

09.04.2012 , 06:24 AM \| #387
Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir Anstalt, I agree that this game has improvement areas, some of which can be taken from SWG, but it seems we do not agree with where. Let me elaborate: Completely disagree. Although I see some slots as being filled by crafting as a good thing, like TOR has now, I dislike that people can get the best loot in game from, basicly, playing a singleplayer game. And that is what crafting is. If the Auction House for mats was a generated marketplace by a computer similation, it would be able to have this in a single player game without needing anyone else to finish. The second M in MMO is still multiplayer, and crafting has always been something you do alone. I am honestly glad modern MMO's move away from crafting as a way to the best gear, and more towards something to get cool, unique things from (like the cybertech speeders, or the Rakata gear armor crafters have) Disagree here as well. Both basicly come down to: those with most time are the best. And that is not what keeps the masses. Although a few things can be done from time to time, I don't see this is where it should go as the major direction for PVP and PVE. This I agree with. Economy needs to be entirely player driven. A major cash sink should be other players, not the game itself. Reduce amount of money made through dailies, reduce cost of purely personal stuff like mod changing and bank slots, and increase incentive to trade with other players. Keep Legacy unlocks as a money sink, but remove day-to-day things like mod switching or levelling cost for a levelling char (almost everyone I know started level 50 broke because of levelling costs) The major reason for a lack of economy at this time is, in my eyes, the fact that you need almost 95% of your income just to do the things the game expects you to do. Depending on definition of dynamic (aka, not area quests that go on and off like Guild Wars 2 has it) yes I agree. I especially like that in GW2, some quests can be done with different tasks. Like.. to defend someone's life.. you can either hold your ground and hold off waves of enemies, or you can try and escort them to safety. Agree, but it is already in game. Heroic 2s scale if you bring a 3rd of 4th player along. Would be nice to see this more often though! Agree here, the list of wishes is too long to say. Don't feel the need. It is not my personal taste. And seeing it is not the personal taste of many others, I'd say Focus is a bad word to use. Some more chances to explore would be nice though. The Datacrons were a nice start.. we need more exploration rewards. I honestly don't know what to make of this. Freedom is what you do with the room that is given you. I don't see the game stopping you from doing whatever you want within their framework.. so that is all the freedom you have within the game. The concept of 'player freedom' is very vague and very personal. I would want to focus on the aspect of choice. My major gripe in this game is that NPC's often wear nicer colorations or variants of gear than what is available to players. Make this gear available and craftable. Remove all greens from crafting tables and make every armor and weapon crafter able to only make oranges and (some) mods. The Orange armor system is a wonderful tool for player freedom, but it was limited way too much. Every item in game should be Orange. That has always been my stance and I still believe it. I still hope Bioware will one day rehash their entire gear database and just do this. I believe in the moddable armor system, the developers should as well and commit themselves fully to it. And you really don't do that if all the crafting recipes you learn from your trainers are greens.. Some good points, we disagree on a lot though. With regard to your thoughts on crafting, the scenario you favour leads to a breakdown of the whole thing imo and is exactly what we have now in SWTOR. The economy needs classes to be dependent on each other. When you have a genuine player controlled crafting system where there is a genuine dependence on other professions thats when crafting ceases to be a "single player game" and is actually arguably one of the most social professions in any MMORPG. The scenario you desribe sounds like you would rather BiS stuff was all dropped via end game raiding? Forgive me if that is not the case. The problem with that in my view is raiding is not something everyone likes to do and it therefore limits endgame quality mats / gear to the select few hardcore guilds / players thus reducing the economy and the level of inter class dependency. Driz

anstalt

09.04.2012 , 06:36 AM \| #388
Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir Completely disagree. Although I see some slots as being filled by crafting as a good thing, like TOR has now, I dislike that people can get the best loot in game from, basicly, playing a singleplayer game. And that is what crafting is. If the Auction House for mats was a generated marketplace by a computer similation, it would be able to have this in a single player game without needing anyone else to finish. The second M in MMO is still multiplayer, and crafting has always been something you do alone. The concept here is not crafting versus raiding, but choice. In SW:TOR, my only method of acquiring top tier gear is to grind endgame instances, basically, grind EC HM. That is the developers forcing me down a particular route and making me repeat it. In SWG, top tier gear was player crafted. That meant to get top tier gear I had to buy it with credits. Thats where the choice came in. I could grind quests for credits. I could farm rare mats and sell them for credits. I could craft myself and sell my wares for credits. Point being, if I wanted to be the best geared in the game, I could choose my method to get there, I wasn't forced down any one path. In SWG, I was particularly fond of farming rancor missions for example, so thats how I made my money. My mate who I played with preferred farming krayt dragon pearls instead. I'm happy for endgame gear to not be crafted as long as there are multiple viable ways to endgame loot so that the player, not the dev, decides how to acheive their goal. Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir Disagree here as well. Both basicly come down to: those with most time are the best. And that is not what keeps the masses. Although a few things can be done from time to time, I don't see this is where it should go as the major direction for PVP and PVE. Player driven PvP does not mean those with the most time are the best. That is what gear-driven pvp is. Player driven pvp = pvp where players are actively encouraged to seek out and fight the opposition and the players have the ability to engineer fights. Basically, player driven pvp means giving players the tools to create their own pvp events that are meaningful and fun for all. In SWG specifically, this was achieved through pvp bases in player cities. Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir Depending on definition of dynamic (aka, not area quests that go on and off like Guild Wars 2 has it) yes I agree. I especially like that in GW2, some quests can be done with different tasks. Like.. to defend someone's life.. you can either hold your ground and hold off waves of enemies, or you can try and escort them to safety. By dynamic, all I'm aiming to achieve is that leveling up on multiple toons is different. This could be done using SWG's quest system (quests scale to your gear and group size and are randomly generated), Rift's rift system (random world events that scale to group size), WAR's PQ system (public quests that only advance once you've got a group together), or some future system that Bioware can develop. The concept is keeping things fresh for the player when leveling new characters. Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir Don't feel the need. It is not my personal taste. And seeing it is not the personal taste of many others, I'd say Focus is a bad word to use. Some more chances to explore would be nice though. The Datacrons were a nice start.. we need more exploration rewards. You're right, focus is the wrong word. Perhaps simply just having the ability to explore more than we currently have is a better way to say it. I'm not an explorer personally, but i know plenty who are. Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir I honestly don't know what to make of this. Freedom is what you do with the room that is given you. I don't see the game stopping you from doing whatever you want within their framework.. so that is all the freedom you have within the game. The concept of 'player freedom' is very vague and very personal. Good point, freedom is very personal. I suppose what I mean is equality of playstyle and the freedom to choose your route to success. For example, I love tattooine and hate hoth. In SWG, I could choose to level up on tattooine and avoid hoth. In SW:TOR I'm forced to do both. The goal / success criteria is the same, but one method of getting there is my choice, the other is the developers choice. The more the player feels in control of their experience, the happier they will be.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!

Liquidacid

09.04.2012 , 06:41 AM \| #389
Quote: Originally Posted by quantumsheep Why can I not rename the items I make? Why can I not write a bio for my character? Why can no-one see my legacy tree but me? How is that expressing my Legacy? Why can I not name my ship? Why am I running around fleet with exactly the same companion as the next trooper? Why can't I rename them? I eh most of those have already been asked, debated and dismissed multiple times since beta renaming items is pointless for the simple fact that one everyone makes the same items so why do we need 500000 lightsabers that are exactly the same but named different it serves no purpose not to mention it would make searching the GTN for an item by name damn near impossible so all cons and no real pros a bio for your character is fine for RPers but honestly it's not going to make much of a difference as most players will never even look at it I still don't understand the purpose of the legacy tree... even if others could see it it seems rather pointless... maybe if there were a system that made it so that the relationships you set between toons meant something it would matter naming you ship as a game system is pointless since the game is fully VOed so no character will ever reference it by that name nor is there free space flight so no other character will ever see your ship unless it's parked in a hanger... honestly for this one you could just name you ship as it is now since the only time anyone would ever refer to it is if you do so in conversation with another player as far as companions that one was already discussed to death... first other players don't see companion names the see "Player name's companion" so it doesn't matter there... second we come back to the VO and the very specific stories already crafted for them... all the lines in the game are already recorded and done specifically referring to the companion by name so you labeling him/her/it something else would just be silly since everyone else else will still refer to them by their original name... the best you can do is hope for more of the companion customization kits and maybe more variety in armor to make them unique we could do with some more customization options like for the inside of our ships (or even better they could add minigames or some actual reason to ever visit another players ship) and our characters but that's still just all fluff and won't make or break the game
"bibo ergo sum" ( I drink, therefore I am) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.

quantumsheep

09.04.2012 , 07:04 AM \| #390
Quote: Originally Posted by Liquidacid eh most of those have already been asked, debated and dismissed multiple times since beta renaming items is pointless for the simple fact that one everyone makes the same items so why do we need 500000 lightsabers that are exactly the same but named different it serves no purpose not to mention it would make searching the GTN for an item by name damn near impossible so all cons and no real pros Unless you make the base name the same but can give the item a 'nickname' in addition? Quote: Originally Posted by Liquidacid a bio for your character is fine for RPers but honestly it's not going to make much of a difference as most players will never even look at it I'm on an RP server Quote: Originally Posted by Liquidacid I still don't understand the purpose of the legacy tree... even if others could see it it seems rather pointless... maybe if there were a system that made it so that the relationships you set between toons meant something it would matter Sure - but it's a step up from just being able to see your own, right? Quote: Originally Posted by Liquidacid naming you ship as a game system is pointless since the game is fully VOed so no character will ever reference it by that name nor is there free space flight so no other character will ever see your ship unless it's parked in a hanger... honestly for this one you could just name you ship as it is now since the only time anyone would ever refer to it is if you do so in conversation with another player Yep, my main point was that it wasn't game systems per se that I missed, more the option to customise stuff. It's fluff, and in my mind an easy win to add a little of your own mark on things. Your point about VO not referencing stuff (like your ship in this case, or companions in your point below) is fair enough, but then no-one complains when their main character is not referenced by name either Quote: Originally Posted by Liquidacid as far as companions that one was already discussed to death... first other players don't see companion names the see "Player name's companion" so it doesn't matter there... second we come back to the VO and the very specific stories already crafted for them... all the lines in the game are already recorded and done specifically referring to the companion by name so you labeling him/her/it something else would just be silly since everyone else else will still refer to them by their original name... the best you can do is hope for more of the companion customization kits and maybe more variety in armor to make them unique Sure. Again, 'nicknames' may be a nice compromise. Mako will always be referred to as Mako in VO cutscenes, but you could affectionately call her 'shorty' for example Quote: Originally Posted by Liquidacid we could do with some more customization options like for the inside of our ships (or even better they could add minigames or some actual reason to ever visit another players ship) and our characters but that's still just all fluff and won't make or break the game I'm just offering some, in my mind, 'easy win' stuff that I personally would like in the game. As I mentioned, to me, it's more about options and choices. A chance to express ones personality perhaps. I don't know if you're familiar with the X-Com series. Great strategy games, I'd recommend them. In that game you could rename your troops. Taking my best friends into battle with me instead of 'randomly named trooper #12' added a huge amount to the game for me, using a very simple system. All just my opinion of course! Carry on! QS
The Progenitor Hicks /Soir/Quantumsheep/Gradius/Huddson/Galaga What I DO

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