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Power Vs Crit And YOU


Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
09.16.2012 , 06:39 AM | #21
The point I'm trying to convey is that, since Power Vs Crit is already such a close fight (less than a 1% difference either way), auto crit abilities tip the scale in favor of power, since power enhances 100% of your damage.

I'm not clear on what you mean by "surge affects different abilities in different ways". To my knowledge, surge is a flat buff to your criticial damage increase. The only way it would have different effects is if said abilities are auto crit, meaning it is much more effective on them. In the case of force scream or smash for example, since they will always crit if you play correctly, it is much more effective. Is this what you meant?
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Megatfx's Avatar


Megatfx
09.16.2012 , 06:52 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Aluvi View Post
The point I'm trying to convey is that, since Power Vs Crit is already such a close fight (less than a 1% difference either way), auto crit abilities tip the scale in favor of power, since power enhances 100% of your damage.
This.

-Yui-'s Avatar


-Yui-
09.17.2012 , 12:30 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aluvi View Post
The point I'm trying to convey is that, since Power Vs Crit is already such a close fight (less than a 1% difference either way), auto crit abilities tip the scale in favor of power, since power enhances 100% of your damage.
Auto-crit abilities will not "tip" the scale for power because the math doesn't support it.

I don't know how you can forget this, but auto-crit affects both high crit/high power builds.

Assuming it's 20% reduction which some people are throwing around, but I'll go ahead and assume 30% to prove my point. Assuming your crit numbers are correct, a 30% reduction on both builds would be 20.727 vs 15.449, or a 9.2% vs 6.621 total net difference. That 2.6% crit is completely marginal. Buoyed by surge, that would translate to a 2% damage increase. That's the grand difference of 10k damage in a 500k warzone, ceteris paribus.

In other words, no matter what you do, power or crit will not make a difference, even taking into account auto-crit abilities. Here's an excellent post by LagunaD for Combat sentinels that explains it further: http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...5&postcount=44
meh

GalnarDegana's Avatar


GalnarDegana
09.17.2012 , 10:28 AM | #24
^^ this seems like a really good summary of the issue. That link is good too.

This is why I threw the "criticals never getting shielded" tidbit in the discussion, because in the long run, in a Warzone of defined time, it doesn't really matter which you emphasize, as long as you don't completely neglect one for the other (which is why I don't like the term "stack"). The effects of the emphasis is sometimes more important than the actual value you get from the stat.

For example, crit-based procs (which I know are very few-and-far-between on Sentinels/Marauders) will benefit from a high crit rating, even if power has more (albeit slight) benefit.

I know that Zen/Beserk is up probably more than 50% of the time when specced Watchman/Annihilation, but the fact is, it isn't up all the time. Crits on burns heal us, so that is something that lends itself to emphasizing crit.

Also, surge is not our only source of increasing crit damage. All of the trees have some talent that increases crit bonus damage. So that is something to consider.

Finally, with regards to the auto-crit Blade Storm/Force Scream, it is a Force attack, so it can't be shielded. So that effect should be completely disregarded when talking about shielding. I don't believe that just because we can't get to 100% crit that we should neglect the effect we have on shields. As that same post that was quoted above says, "A critical can never be shielded." That means that we are guaranteed that if we have a 40% crit percentage, 40% of our attacks are unshieldable. So for getting off that Merciless Slash/Annihilate in Watchman/Annihilation, or that Slash/Vicious Slash in Focus/Rage, that is incredibly handy against the many tanks that do run around with shields in their shield stance.

Again, I am not a fan of "stacking" one stat to the detriment of all other stats. I like to emphasize stats.
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Xerain's Avatar


Xerain
10.03.2012 , 05:12 PM | #25
here it is Chea.

oofalong's Avatar


oofalong
10.04.2012 , 09:35 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by DanturTK View Post
...Bleeds area large portion of the damage, but they aren't the largest portion of it.
In my experience, bleeds are ~40% of our damage. There are two bleed-inflicting abilities - Deadly Saber & Rupture - and jointly they should be the largest portion. Individually, they are probably the 2nd and 3rd in terms of overall damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by DanturTK View Post
Also berserk, at most, is going to last for 12 ticks or around 6 seconds, assuming you they don't get cleansed or otherwise wasted. Having a decent amount of base crit will encourage more annihilation crits, which during many PvP skirmishes, will get more use and deal more damage than the bleeds with berserk being spammed...
Berserk last for 6 charges. Rupture tics every 1s while Deadly Saber tics every 1.5s. The maximum duration of Berserk is 9s (6 tics of Deadly Saber every 1.5s). The shortest duration assumes the bleeds from Rupture and Deadly Saber are both up and lasts for ~4s. Maybe I misunderstood something, but how did you come up with 12 tics and 6 seconds?
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You are correct Oofalong.

Andrew_Past's Avatar


Andrew_Past
10.07.2012 , 02:50 AM | #27
Keep in mind that Beserk only causes auto crits for 6s bleed ticks. That's not even enough to auto-crit one round of rupture and deadly saber. So, for the majority of the your bleed ticks, you won't be auto-critting. Therefore, a good amount of crit is very beneficial due to not only the extra heals, but the extra surge on bleed effects. Anything that boosts surge for abilities by a significant margin gives crit more weight.
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arkitip's Avatar


arkitip
10.07.2012 , 08:54 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Andrew_Past View Post
Keep in mind that Beserk only causes auto crits for 6s bleed ticks. That's not even enough to auto-crit one round of rupture and deadly saber. So, for the majority of the your bleed ticks, you won't be auto-critting. Therefore, a good amount of crit is very beneficial due to not only the extra heals, but the extra surge on bleed effects. Anything that boosts surge for abilities by a significant margin gives crit more weight.

I'm fairly certain we've already hashed that out in this thread, and it's just not the case. The logic is sound, but in actual practice the difference between 164 crit rating and 328 crit rating for a BiS geared player is around a 1% swing either way.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
10.07.2012 , 09:06 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by GalnarDegana View Post
That means that we are guaranteed that if we have a 40% crit percentage, 40% of our attacks are unshieldable.
Unfortunately that's a bit of a meaningless stat. Crit and shield are on the same roll, so unless your crit chance and your target's shield chance exceed 100% combined, you're not reducing your target's chance of shielding.

To put it another way, let's say your crit chance is 40%, and your target's shield chance is 40%. There is a 40% chance of you landing a crit, a 20% chance to land a normal hit, and a 40% chance for the attack to be shielded. If your crit chance was 20%, then you'd have a 20% chance of critting, a 40% chance of a normal hit, and a 40% chance of a shielding. You're not actually reducing the chance of your target shielding your attacks.
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oofalong's Avatar


oofalong
10.08.2012 , 08:31 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Andrew_Past View Post
Keep in mind that Beserk only causes auto crits for 6s bleed ticks. That's not even enough to auto-crit one round of rupture and deadly saber.
What do you mean by 6s bleed ticks? It lasts 6 charges, depending on which bleed is up this could tick every 1s or every 1.5s.


Things everyone should know about crit % for bleed damage, a type of force damage.
  1. Crit% is a combination of crit rating, strength, willpower and any build bonuses. They are all additive.
  2. There is no diminishing marginal return to crit%; however, the previously mentioned components of crit% due suffer from diminishing marginal returns.
  3. At lvl 50, our base strength is 250 and base willpower is 100. This translates into a base crit of 2.8% for force crit%.
  4. In addition you should have +17% force crit from the following places:
    • 5% base for all characters
    • 1% from Vette's max affection
    • 5% from Coordination (Imperial Agent Buff)
    • 6% from Malice (talent in the Rage tree)
  5. Next, you should factor in +15% bleed crit from 5 stacks of Juyo @ 3% per stack.

Now, before applying any crit rating or strength from any of our gear, we effectively have a 34.8% crit% for our bleed damage. Assuming BiS 1.3 gear, all strength augments, Sith Inquisitor buff and all datacrons, your total strength should be 2034 and willpower 147. This adds an additional 11.1% crit.

Our bleed crit% is now 45.9%. And, this is before we have added any benefit from crit rating. This fact is the cause of the whole crit rating vs power debate for Annihilation Marauders. Most of our damage comes from bleed, and our effective base crit% for bleeds is 45.9%. Thus, many suggest that we don't need any crit rating and we should focus entirely on power for its boost to all damage.

Based on my analysis, this is not true. I believe we benefit from a crit rating of at least 123 at the expense of power. This 123 crit rating provides an additional 5.1% crit%, and provides a modest ~1% DPS increase. After this, there may still be benefit from higher crit rating, but according to my calculations it is less than 0.1% difference.
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
You are correct Oofalong.