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Power Vs Crit And YOU


bahdasz's Avatar


bahdasz
09.08.2012 , 08:04 PM | #11
Nice to see someone actually took the time to sit down do the math on this. I can pretty much confirm the same thing on this from my experiences with my bounty hunter, though my thoughts are mostly theory. I used to run with a heavy damage build, all aim, power and surge and I really thought I was tearing stuff up because of it. Out of curiosity later on I built a crit suit replacing most of the power with crit getting up to just over 30%, just to try it out. In the end my conclusion was that they are about equal and at that point your accuracy vs your targets defense is what's going to actually make the difference.

Theoretically if you're running around with say 106% accuracy and your target has say 8% defense you still have a 2% chance to miss. There's always a chance, no matter how small, that the one that misses would have rolled a crit, and that chance is increased if you stack more crit. The chance of your potential crit missing should rise the more your target's defense outreaches your accuracy. If you're stacking for crit I feel this would mean a more significant overal damage loss on your part in a long fight, at least more so than if you're stacking power, though it probably wouldn't make too much of a difference is short one.

Unfortunately I don't have the math skill to calculate it or the patience or time to test it, but those were my thoughts on the subject. I say thanks to Aluvi for putting the brain power into this.

Eszi's Avatar


Eszi
09.09.2012 , 04:31 AM | #12
Too much surge, and your crit build has not enough crit.

I'm at 595 bonus damage and 35,5% crit

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
09.09.2012 , 08:35 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by bahdasz View Post
Nice to see someone actually took the time to sit down do the math on this. I can pretty much confirm the same thing on this from my experiences with my bounty hunter, though my thoughts are mostly theory. I used to run with a heavy damage build, all aim, power and surge and I really thought I was tearing stuff up because of it. Out of curiosity later on I built a crit suit replacing most of the power with crit getting up to just over 30%, just to try it out. In the end my conclusion was that they are about equal and at that point your accuracy vs your targets defense is what's going to actually make the difference.

Theoretically if you're running around with say 106% accuracy and your target has say 8% defense you still have a 2% chance to miss. There's always a chance, no matter how small, that the one that misses would have rolled a crit, and that chance is increased if you stack more crit. The chance of your potential crit missing should rise the more your target's defense outreaches your accuracy. If you're stacking for crit I feel this would mean a more significant overal damage loss on your part in a long fight, at least more so than if you're stacking power, though it probably wouldn't make too much of a difference is short one.

Unfortunately I don't have the math skill to calculate it or the patience or time to test it, but those were my thoughts on the subject. I say thanks to Aluvi for putting the brain power into this.
Just to note... Merc isn't a great comparison in this regard, due to the point in Critical Reaction that the cookie-cutter Arsenal build should use. Keeping the Alacrity buff up means a sizable increase in overall DPS (since ~70-80% of your overall damage comes from channels), and thus you have an active incentive to build up your crit chance a bit higher.

And to your second point, you're right to a point but it's ultimately a non-issue. 285 Accuracy rating (5 BH Accuracy enhancements) + Legacy Accuracy companion buff = 99.89% base accuracy, or 109.89% Special/Force?Tech accuracy. Even with a worst-case assumption of 10% defense chance, you're only .11% short of cap, which is acceptable given the current gear availability. Thus, Accuracy really is off the table when you're number crunching for endgame, but you do have to consider the balance between Power and Crit rating.

bahdasz's Avatar


bahdasz
09.10.2012 , 02:13 PM | #14
My build is mercenary pyrotech, not tracer missile spam-bot, but thanks for assuming I'm a lazy mindless 12 year-old. And I have 0 alacrity in my build because a pyro merc needs it about as much as a anni mara . Having played both extensivley, I am confident that it is fair to compare pyro merc to anni mara . Their damage dealing skills are very similar and all I was saying is that regardless of what prof you play there doesn't seem to be much difference in the long run, the overall damage difference between a power build and crit build is neglible.

GalnarDegana's Avatar


GalnarDegana
09.14.2012 , 02:51 PM | #15
How about this to blow your mind with even more factors to consider: critical hits can never be shielded. Discuss!

Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
09.14.2012 , 10:19 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by GalnarDegana View Post
How about this to blow your mind with even more factors to consider: critical hits can never be shielded. Discuss!
So.. crits are slightly more useful on like 1% of the pvp population? I don't know of very many tanks that actually use tank gear with absorption on it =/
Aluvian (now Aluvien) Sith Marauder <Infinite Darkness> POT5
Youtube Channel:http://www.youtube.com/kdbutler2
720p Carnage PvP Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/aluviansw

Ryvirath's Avatar


Ryvirath
09.15.2012 , 09:08 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Aluvi View Post
So.. crits are slightly more useful on like 1% of the pvp population? I don't know of very many tanks that actually use tank gear with absorption on it =/
A ton in regular warzones. I'd imagine much less in rated, but there's decent metagame potential for having at least one guy with shield on your team since they can eat a significant amount of carnage/sniper/pyro/jug-hybrid rotations.

Edit: There's also more factors to consider then just scream autocritting. You can't say for instance that because scream is 20% of your damage crit is 20% less effective. In this instance it's not a quality, but a quantity. How many of your hits are screams? Given things like zerk and being able to fit roughly 16 attacks in (counting atarus, retaliation, gore, reduced GCD) in per force scream it gets nuts. Ultimately you'd need to find not how much damage scream comprised, but how much of you rotation it comprises, which I'd bet is <10%. Then you could say at what point is 90% damage/crit/point worse then 100% of damage/power/point.

DanturTK's Avatar


DanturTK
09.15.2012 , 09:34 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Bigdaddyjug View Post
He's wrong. And he's so wrong it's not even funny. You should have Berserk up as much as possible as an Anni marauder, and when you have Berserk up your bleeds auto-crit and therefore all your crit rating is worthless.

Power is much more useful because it means those bleeds that are auto-critting are hitting harder.

Edit: The only way for the Power vs Crit debate to be settled is with exhaustive testing, either in game or on a very accurate sim. In game, I would say do repeat a 10 minute parse 10 times and then average out the damage. Then trade out Power for Crit and do 10 more 10 minute parses and average out the damage. Whichever one has higher average damage is probably the way to go.

If you want to be truly exhaustive, you can swap out power for crit on every piece of gear, one at a time, and test at each different level to see which comes out the best, but it would take a long time to get the gear required for the tests and even longer to run the tests.

Because of that, an accurate sim may be the way to go.
If one acknowledges that there is a debate on the topic, then he can't really be "so wrong its not even funny." Bleeds area large portion of the damage, but they aren't the largest portion of it. Also berserk, at most, is going to last for 12 ticks or around 6 seconds, assuming you they don't get cleansed or otherwise wasted. Having a decent amount of base crit will encourage more annihilation crits, which during many PvP skirmishes, will get more use and deal more damage than the bleeds with berserk being spammed.

In my opinion, attempts to math out PvP is not good practice, since PvP is random throughout and no dummy can factor real PvP mechanics, namely the player one. It's good for consideration, but for me, I try to strike a balance between the two so that I'm not a one trick pony, or relying on only one or two skills to autocrit on a timer. Too much crit could disadvantage you in the random duel that could occur in a wz. Not enough could disadvantage you in the extended fight, that seems more common place.

Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
09.16.2012 , 12:58 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryvirath View Post
A ton in regular warzones. I'd imagine much less in rated, but there's decent metagame potential for having at least one guy with shield on your team since they can eat a significant amount of carnage/sniper/pyro/jug-hybrid rotations.

Edit: There's also more factors to consider then just scream autocritting. You can't say for instance that because scream is 20% of your damage crit is 20% less effective. In this instance it's not a quality, but a quantity. How many of your hits are screams? Given things like zerk and being able to fit roughly 16 attacks in (counting atarus, retaliation, gore, reduced GCD) in per force scream it gets nuts. Ultimately you'd need to find not how much damage scream comprised, but how much of you rotation it comprises, which I'd bet is <10%. Then you could say at what point is 90% damage/crit/point worse then 100% of damage/power/point.
We're talking about effective damage, not effective "rotation" percentages. If, on a dummy, in doing a normal carnage rotation, 20% of your damage comes from force scream auto crits, that reduces the effectiveness crit has on your overall dps by 20%. In actual use, it's probably more than 20% because of downtime between screams being filled by cc/stun/snare etc. During your inactive time, cooldowns are resetting, and your filler abilities/rotation become even less significant. It doesn't matter if you use force scream once per 50 other abilities, or once per 10. What matters is, what percentage of your total dps does force scream come out to? Sorry but your thinking is just flawed.

Next, about the shield point. I've been thinking about this, and although it may be somewhat helpful against tanks, It is very rare that I actually directly damage a tank in PvP. More often, I am damaging his shielded target, and he ends up dying for that target (usually a healer).

As for actually beating on a tank, here is the reason why critical rating is not "extra helpful" versus a tank (it all has to do with how the 2 roll combat system works in SWTOR):

Quote:
The 2-Roll System

SWTOR leverages a 2-roll system for determining the outcome of an opponent’s attack as explained by BioWare’s Georg Zoeller (references: 1 2 ), bold emphasis mine:

First is a hit roll, accuracy versus defense, and if the attacker misses then no damage occurs. If the attacker rolled poorly enough to miss even discounting the target’s defense then a “Miss” result occurs. If he misses because of the defense then the result varies based on the attack type, the cover state of the target, and the target’s equipped weapons. All the possible results – Dodge, Parry, Deflect, Resist, Cover – are mathematically the same, but they can trigger different effects and are visualized in different ways.

If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance. A critical can never be shielded, and an attacker with a high enough crit chance can push the target’s shield chance off the table. It shouldn’t be possible to get your passive crit chance high enough to start pushing off the target’s shield chance, but there are short-duration buffs that push these chances high enough to come into conflict.

Which Attack Types are Defensible and Shieldable

There are 4 attack types: Force, Melee, Ranged, and Tech.

The attack types should not be confused with the 4 damage types: Elemental, Energy, Internal, and Kinetic.

Melee and Ranged attacks are Defensible and Shieldable, whereas Force and Tech attacks are not. This is consistent with other games such as WoW and RIFT, where “spell” attacks are not dodgeable / parryable and not blockable.

Based on what Georg wrote , here is my guess on what the roll table for Crit-vs-Shield looks like for Melee and Ranged attacks that were not Defended.

Scenario 1

Attacker’s Crit Chance: 30%
Defender’s Shield Chance: 30%
So remaining 40% is normal hit (not Crit, not Shielded)
Scenario 2

Attacker’s Crit Chance: 60%
Defender’s Shield Chance: 30%
So remaining 10% is normal hit (not Crit, not Shielded)
Scenario 3: Shield Chance reduced

Attacker’s Crit Chance: 80%
Defender’s Shield Chance: 30%, but for the roll calculation it’s treated as 20% because the Crit Chance pushed 10% off the table
Scenario 4: Shield Chance negated

Attacker’s Crit Chance: 100% (e.g. due to a proc buff that makes the attack Crit)
Defender’s Shield Chance: 30%, but for the roll calculation it’s treated as 0%
Therefore, the attack is a guaranteed non-Shielded Crit
So unless you are stacking crit high enough to push the shield chance off of the table, it doesn't really matter. I understand if this is a difficult concept to comprehend, as it requires some critical thinking (no pun intended.. well ok maybe a little ) and math.
Aluvian (now Aluvien) Sith Marauder <Infinite Darkness> POT5
Youtube Channel:http://www.youtube.com/kdbutler2
720p Carnage PvP Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/aluviansw

Ryvirath's Avatar


Ryvirath
09.16.2012 , 02:51 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Aluvi View Post
We're talking about effective damage, not effective "rotation" percentages. If, on a dummy, in doing a normal carnage rotation, 20% of your damage comes from force scream auto crits, that reduces the effectiveness crit has on your overall dps by 20%. In actual use, it's probably more than 20% because of downtime between screams being filled by cc/stun/snare etc. During your inactive time, cooldowns are resetting, and your filler abilities/rotation become even less significant. It doesn't matter if you use force scream once per 50 other abilities, or once per 10. What matters is, what percentage of your total dps does force scream come out to? Sorry but your thinking is just flawed.
What? Surge affects abilities differently. I shouldn't have to elaborate from there. I probably shouldn't have said 20% of your damage since that's both inaccurate when talking about the changing of stat weights and the wrong way of representing the crit argument, so my apologies. It's not what percentage of damage since that is going to vary on stat weights, it's what percentage of your rotation since that is not going to vary (ideally). If massacre is say 50% of a carnage rotation then I want to find out, oh say, how much an extra 6% chance to do 105% more damage is going to impact versus whatever power is doing. You don't use final damage because that is the thing you are modifying so when you say 20% comes from scream you've reached the end of the argument rather then the beginning.

Also, I don't know if you were addressing me, but I didn't say anything about shield other than it had decent potential as a meta game counter and that I see quite a few in normal warzones.