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Power Vs Crit And YOU


Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
09.02.2012 , 02:17 AM | #1
So there has been a lot of debate on this recently, and I decided it was time to do the math and figure it out. The problem with comparing Power and Critical Hit Chance is that you are basically comparing apples to oranges. While they both increase dps, they do it in different ways, and Surge is another factor.

For the purposes of this theoretical arithmetic based test, I am using Megatfz's character builder, as it is already optimized, but doing several small tweaks to demonstrate the difference between crit and power. One of these builds will go pure power/surge, the other will go crit /surge, up to about 30%. The builds are identical except for swapping several enhancements to get either more power or more crit. Here are the links:

Power Build:

Bonus Damage: 635
Critical Hit Chance: 22.07%
Critical Hit Damage (surge): 77.8%

Critical Hit Chance Build

Bonus Damage: 588.6
Critical Hit Chance: 29.61%
Critical Hit Damage (surge): 77.8%

Difference Between Builds:
Bonus Damage: 46.4
Critical Hit Chance: 7.54%
Critical Hit Damage (surge): 0 (same)
All other stats = same.

So now we are left with this question: Which is better, 7.54% Critical Hit Chance, or 46.4 Bonus Damage? Let's do some math and find out! For the purposes of this simple test, I am going to ignore offhand damage (since it would just be a scaled down version of the mainhand that missed more).

Bonus Damage Test:

Mainhand Top End Damage: 1121
Critical Hit Chance 22.07%

Let's assume we hit a dummy 10.000 times, each hit dealing maximum top end damage. Of those 10,000 hits, 2207 would be critical hits (22.07%) doing 78.8% extra damage, with the remaining 7793 being normal.
7793 normal hits x 1121 = 8,735,953
2207 Crit Hits x 1121 x 1.788 = 4,423,596.036
Total Damage: 13,159,549.036

Critical Damage Test:

Mainhand Top End Damage: 1074.6
Critical Hit Chance: 29.61%

Same test. 10,000 hits. 2961 will be crit. 7039 will be normal
7039 x 1074.6 = 7,564,109.4
2961 x 1074.6 x 1.788 = 5,689,220.3928
Total Damage: 13,253,329.7928

Results:
Critical Hit Build Damage Done: 13,253,329 (883.5 dps)
Bonus Damage Build Damage Done: 13,159,549 (877.3 dps)


I am assuming a swing speed of 1.5 seconds for the GCD to determine dps. Obviously real dps would be higher, because certain abilities have a higher +bonus damage coefficient. This actually translates into a .99%, or about 1% dps increase for crit.

Great, so now we have some kind of result, right? But wait. Many abilities get more than just a flat +bonus damage from the bonus damage stat. Many of them get a larger coefficient, say x3 or even more. OK, so let's test that as well and compare.

Damage Build with 3x Coefficient on +Bonus Damage
7793 Normal Hits x 2,391 = 18,633,063
2207 Crit Hits x 2,391 x 1.788 = 9,435,163
Total Damage: 28,068,226

\Crit Build with 3x Coefficient on +Bonus Damage
7039 Normal Hits x 2251 = 15,844,789
2961 x 2251 x 1.788 = 11,917,397.268
Total Damage: 27,762,186

A difference of .98% dps, this time favoring +bonus damage.

OK, now I'm really confused, and to add to that confusion, every spec has some type of automatic crit ability that does significant damage. Annihilation = automatic DOT crit ticks while berserking. Carnage = auto Force Scream crits. Rage = automatic Smash crits. All of these are significant portions of the damage done by said spec, and when they are critting automatically due to talents, crit rating is worthless. So now the question is, is the 1% damage difference between set ups mitigated or even reduced to being less effective than +bonus damage due to those auto crit abilities?

And here is where my paper napkin math ends, because trying to quantify the percentage of damage that critical hits will not affect at all gets very deep into the classes core mechanics and talent specs. To determine if the 1% effectiveness difference is mitigated or even reduced to being less effective than stacking pure +bonus damage, we would need to program a simulator to do ideal rotations, and do 10's of thousands of iterations of those rotations. And even then, we would have to take into account all the different abilities and their coefficients. And then we would have those "perfect world" scenarios to compare, but as we all know, that never happens in pvp due to stuns, cc, snare, deaths, etc.

My hypothesis is this: If we programmed simcraft or a similar program to find out EXACTLY which one is better and to what amount, I think that we would find the difference to be negligible. The only spec that I believe will really see a large difference between power/crit would be Rage, due to big smash auto crits being such a large percentage of the damage. Carnage and Annihilation, the difference in dps will be negligible, however annihilation benefits from crit in the form of extra heals, but again, this portion is going to be small.

The bottom line is that the difference is probably negligible, and you should just get as much +power and +crit as you can while keeping accuracy between 99-100% melee, and surge around 75%, more is better, but don't sacrifice power / crit for it (and you shouldn't have to, since pieces can either get power + surge or crit + surge, or power + acc / crit + acc, so you won't ever have to choose).

When in doubt, it's probably best to err on the side of crit for PvP simply because killing healers in PvP requires burst damage, and more crit = more burst. Please feel free to double check my numbers, post any errors, and discuss this post. I welcome constructive criticism and debate, but please keep this to a discussion, and not an argument.
Aluvian (now Aluvien) Sith Marauder <Infinite Darkness> Shadowlands
Aluviann Jedi Sentinel <Triumph> Shadowlands
Youtube Channel:http://www.youtube.com/kdbutler2
720p Carnage PvP Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/aluviansw

Asphen's Avatar


Asphen
09.02.2012 , 05:55 AM | #2
Too long to really read.

Just add cliffs.
Biochem - w/ grenades.

arkitip's Avatar


arkitip
09.02.2012 , 06:30 AM | #3
The shorter fight lengths in PVP make erring on the side of crit a bad idea due to RNG. In longer battles the randomness tends to even out and you'll crit at the % your rating would suggest.
In a short fight, like in PVP, It's entirely possible that the RNG will leave you with 0 crits outside of auto crit abilities, or even all crits even though your crit % is only 20.

Megatfx's Avatar


Megatfx
09.02.2012 , 07:34 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by arkitip View Post
The shorter fight lengths in PVP make erring on the side of crit a bad idea due to RNG. In longer battles the randomness tends to even out and you'll crit at the % your rating would suggest.
In a short fight, like in PVP, It's entirely possible that the RNG will leave you with 0 crits outside of auto crit abilities, or even all crits even though your crit % is only 20.
This.

Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
09.02.2012 , 07:55 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by arkitip View Post
The shorter fight lengths in PVP make erring on the side of crit a bad idea due to RNG. In longer battles the randomness tends to even out and you'll crit at the % your rating would suggest.
In a short fight, like in PVP, It's entirely possible that the RNG will leave you with 0 crits outside of auto crit abilities, or even all crits even though your crit % is only 20.
Either way, the entire point I am trying to make is that it doesn't really matter. Combined with the millions of other variables, you will not notice a difference.
Aluvian (now Aluvien) Sith Marauder <Infinite Darkness> Shadowlands
Aluviann Jedi Sentinel <Triumph> Shadowlands
Youtube Channel:http://www.youtube.com/kdbutler2
720p Carnage PvP Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/aluviansw

DrRon's Avatar


DrRon
09.06.2012 , 12:33 PM | #6
I was wondering exactly this last night!

I had the choice between +crit and +power gear on drops in an FP and wasn't sure whether it really mattered all that much.

It would make sense that you would want a stat that is constant (power) which basically gives you stable dps over time vs. a crit% increase(RNG) with COULD give you a good burst or two IF you're lucky. I would imagine you would want as much strength as you could find, which again would favor a power stat over crit%, no?

I guess it really doesn't matter when levling, but thanks for the info!
Why do we never have time to do it right, but always seem to have time to do it twice.

MatticusFinch's Avatar


MatticusFinch
09.06.2012 , 12:50 PM | #7
I think you have to consider the spec, as the OP mentions. Here's my two cents:

Annihilation: Crit is very important here because critical bleeds not only heal, but gain bonus surge damage from bleedout. This is a case where you'd want the 30% unbuffed crit so your force critical chance is around 40% buffed. The primary source of damage (bleeds) is amplified greatly by crit for this spec.

Carnage: Crit is still important as ever. The better crit chance, then the more devastating a ravage will be after using a gore. You can easily (not really easily, of course) eclipse a 6k hit from the 3rd strike of ravage if it crits. Every ataru hit and off-hand strike has a chance to do extra damage as well from Massacre. The auto-crit attack is not the primary source of damage in this (force scream), whereas everything else benefits tremendously.

Rage: I almost want to say that crit doesn't matter at all, but that's an overstatement. Smash is the focal point of this spec, but the next best things are crush and vicious slash. Both would benefit from crit, but much less than smash benefits from power. This is one spec where crit should be there, but I think around 30% force crit chance when buffed is plenty. Power is very important here.

That's my take, feel free to disagree.
Prophecy of the Five - RIVAL - The McAwesome Legacy
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DrRon's Avatar


DrRon
09.06.2012 , 01:14 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by MatticusFinch View Post
IAnnihilation: Crit is very important here because critical bleeds not only heal, but gain bonus surge damage from bleedout. This is a case where you'd want the 30% unbuffed crit so your force critical chance is around 40% buffed. The primary source of damage (bleeds) is amplified greatly by crit for this spec.
That will be my preferred Spec. Thanks for the advice!!
Why do we never have time to do it right, but always seem to have time to do it twice.

Bigdaddyjug's Avatar


Bigdaddyjug
09.07.2012 , 11:48 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by DrRon View Post
That will be my preferred Spec. Thanks for the advice!!
He's wrong. And he's so wrong it's not even funny. You should have Berserk up as much as possible as an Anni marauder, and when you have Berserk up your bleeds auto-crit and therefore all your crit rating is worthless.

Power is much more useful because it means those bleeds that are auto-critting are hitting harder.

Edit: The only way for the Power vs Crit debate to be settled is with exhaustive testing, either in game or on a very accurate sim. In game, I would say do repeat a 10 minute parse 10 times and then average out the damage. Then trade out Power for Crit and do 10 more 10 minute parses and average out the damage. Whichever one has higher average damage is probably the way to go.

If you want to be truly exhaustive, you can swap out power for crit on every piece of gear, one at a time, and test at each different level to see which comes out the best, but it would take a long time to get the gear required for the tests and even longer to run the tests.

Because of that, an accurate sim may be the way to go.
The Empire sells an ugly truth; the Republic sells a pretty lie. I hate being lied to.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
09.08.2012 , 07:33 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Bigdaddyjug View Post
He's wrong. And he's so wrong it's not even funny. You should have Berserk up as much as possible as an Anni marauder, and when you have Berserk up your bleeds auto-crit and therefore all your crit rating is worthless.

Power is much more useful because it means those bleeds that are auto-critting are hitting harder.

Edit: The only way for the Power vs Crit debate to be settled is with exhaustive testing, either in game or on a very accurate sim. In game, I would say do repeat a 10 minute parse 10 times and then average out the damage. Then trade out Power for Crit and do 10 more 10 minute parses and average out the damage. Whichever one has higher average damage is probably the way to go.

If you want to be truly exhaustive, you can swap out power for crit on every piece of gear, one at a time, and test at each different level to see which comes out the best, but it would take a long time to get the gear required for the tests and even longer to run the tests.

Because of that, an accurate sim may be the way to go.
^ This.

I've seen people throw around all kinds of arbitrary numbers for what the "right" Crit Rating is for Annihilation, and honestly it's all kind of bunk.

Likewise, if you math it out, Malice, for all it seems like a talent tailor-made for Annihilation, is actually *less* useful than something like Ravager because such a large percentage of bleed ticks are already going to crit (thanks to bonus crit % from Juyo stacks plus Berserk).

The only way to find the "right" answer is via simming it, but even then, sims have a very hard time accurately depicting every possible in-game situation, so there's always an element of YMMV.

One thing I do take issue with is when people recommend ultra-low Crit Ratings, as rarely ever will more than 40% of Annilhilation spec's damage come from bleeds over an extended fight, and the other 60% benefits much more from a higher base crit chance than bleeds do.