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Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4
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ProfChaos's Avatar


ProfChaos
09.06.2012 , 02:40 PM | #561
Interesting to see a lot of people talking about the Sorcerer heals and ************. But in reality the merc healers are still the most nerfed. Even with the changes. The changes will help especially adding slows for Mercs/Commandos. Sorcerers/Sage still have force speed which they can use to get away. Merc healers sorry no running away. So quit ************. Merc healers are getting a little better with some slow abilities and FINALLY an interrupt. Of course Merc/Commandos same problem just saying for the Scoccer/Sage ************ about the 120 degree cone. At least you run can and escape. Kind of like surviving a horror movie. I don't have to outrun the killer just you. Merc/Commandos will still get beat down while Scoccer/Sage can just run away and survive.
Oh Boba's got himself a lightsaber now. Make it 2. Oh red and blue. Put them together. What does it make? PURPLE RAIN! Oh no he's getting away! What's this button here? For this long range missle could possible be, couldn't? BOOM! And the quartback is toast!

Darth_Philar's Avatar


Darth_Philar
09.06.2012 , 03:05 PM | #562
Quote: Originally Posted by ProfChaos View Post
Interesting to see a lot of people talking about the Sorcerer heals and ************. But in reality the merc healers are still the most nerfed. Even with the changes. The changes will help especially adding slows for Mercs/Commandos. Sorcerers/Sage still have force speed which they can use to get away. Merc healers sorry no running away. So quit ************. Merc healers are getting a little better with some slow abilities and FINALLY an interrupt. Of course Merc/Commandos same problem just saying for the Scoccer/Sage ************ about the 120 degree cone. At least you run can and escape. Kind of like surviving a horror movie. I don't have to outrun the killer just you. Merc/Commandos will still get beat down while Scoccer/Sage can just run away and survive.
Sorcerers were not spending enough time hiding in holes waiting to die and in fact were dying on their way to the hole. To correct this bug we have allowed them to run more often. We are even giving them a self heal that will allow them to live long enough to reach the hole where they will die since viewers complained that the game did not currently conform to modern horror film archetypes.
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MaceSW's Avatar


MaceSW
09.06.2012 , 03:21 PM | #563
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Hey everyone - thanks for your feedback on the classes blog! We're reading your questions and concerns and will work on getting answers to some of the common ones. Today I spoke to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) and Rob Hinkle (Senior PvP Designer) about the changes to Resolve in relation to coordinated and uncoordinated teams, which many of you have questions or concerns about.

First of all, please do keep in mind that reading about changes and experiencing them can be different. We are looking forward to your feedback once you've had some time to see these changes when the PTS becomes available!

In the live game, being affected by two stuns simultaneously only controls you for 4 seconds, but it gives you full Resolve. To be plain, this makes escaping a rampaging melee player very, very difficult. It's directly related to concerns we see regarding overpowered melee and them being inescapable. Going immune after only 4 seconds of control strongly favors the one being controlled.

What this change actually does is make "wasted" control not build extraneous Resolve. Once this change goes live, two well-coordinated players will not be able to control a target for any longer than they ever were able to before. In the live game and after this change, the optimal control strategy is and will continue to be "player B uses his control after player A's control has worn off." The only change is that two uncoordinated players aren't unduly and additionally punished for wasting their control.



Consider the following examples under the new system:

ex. A: Player A stuns the target for 4 seconds. 1 second after the stun is applied, player B stuns the same target for 4 seconds. The target is controlled for a total duration of 5 seconds.
  • Player A stuns the enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = 4 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • 1 second later, player B stuns the same enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = existing 4s + new 1s = 5 seconds | enemy gains 200 Resolve
  • Enemy gains a total of 1000 Resolve for being controlled for 5 seconds
  • Resolve gain rate = 200 per second of stun

ex B: Player A stuns the target for 4 seconds. 4 seconds after the stun is applied, player B stuns the same target for 4 seconds. The target is controlled for a total duration of 8 seconds.
  • Player A stuns the enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = 4 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • 4 seconds later, player B stuns the same enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = existing 4s + new 4s = 8 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • Enemy gains a total of 1600 Resolve for being controlled for 8 seconds
  • Resolve gain rate = 200 per second of stun


Consider those same examples under the old system:

ex A: Player A stuns the target for 4 seconds. 1 second after the stun is applied, player B stuns the same target for 4 seconds. The target is controlled for a total duration of 5 seconds.
  • Player A stuns the enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = 4 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • 1 second later, player B stuns the same enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = existing 4s + new 1s = 5 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • Enemy gains a total of 1600 Resolve for being controlled for 5 seconds
  • Resolve gain rate = 320 per second of stun

ex. B: Player A stuns the target for 4 seconds. 4 seconds after the stun is applied, player B stuns the same target for 4 seconds. The target is controlled for a total duration of 8 seconds.
  • Player A stuns the enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = 4 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • 4 seconds later, player B stuns the same enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = existing 4s + new 4s = 8 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • Enemy gains a total of 1600 Resolve for being controlled for 8 seconds
  • Resolve gain rate = 200 per second of stun


The only difference here is that the enemy is never treated to undue Resolve gains. Resolve gain always matches the amount of absolute control time. Two coordinated players can control a target as long as ever, but no longer than ever before.
Stun Wars - The Slow Republic becomes even more true!

This game needs MOAR STUNS DEFINATELY... since there are still people loggin' /facepalm

DarthOvertone's Avatar


DarthOvertone
09.06.2012 , 03:30 PM | #564
Quote: Originally Posted by Timias View Post
Ever have a Stealthkiller pop in behind you while you're working on the mobs in Denova? No? Guess not. Try it sometime.
Ever have a Stealthkiller pop in behind your healer who's 20m away in Denova? Try your electrocute .. no DPS while you run (as a Ranged DPS) to stun him to give your healer a break. Some mobs don't have Agro Tables, so saying the Tank needs to take care of it is BS. After all, Opreations ARE Teamwork.

Nice to see you play a Sorcerer and a Sage
That's a gamebreaking scenario you got thar that I'm sure happens all the time and effects us all, every single night. Force Wave should not be changed just for that one gamebreaking scenario you described. lol

Fail. Try again.
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oredith's Avatar


oredith
09.06.2012 , 03:32 PM | #565
Quote: Originally Posted by Sundragon View Post
Hey, you there in the heavy armor! Yeah, you! You are wearing heavy armor. Maybe you didn't notice.
please elaborate on how much my heavy armor is helping me against force attacks.
(╯□)╯┻━┻
flipp'n yo desk, like a bauss
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oredith's Avatar


oredith
09.06.2012 , 03:34 PM | #566
Quote: Originally Posted by Timias View Post
Querstion directed at Timias:


Ever have a Stealthkiller pop in behind you while you're working on the mobs in Denova? No? Guess not. Try it sometime.
Ever have a Stealthkiller pop in behind your healer who's 20m away in Denova? Try your electrocute .. no DPS while you run (as a Ranged DPS) to stun him to give your healer a break. Some mobs don't have Agro Tables, so saying the Tank needs to take care of it is BS. After all, Opreations ARE Teamwork.

Nice to see you play a Sorcerer and a Sage
you should probably tell your bounty hunters to take their heads out of their *** and learn to use their stealth scan at 20% then.
(╯□)╯┻━┻
flipp'n yo desk, like a bauss
Tankie

Talaxinn's Avatar


Talaxinn
09.06.2012 , 04:11 PM | #567
First off, I'd like to state that my sole interest is for this game to thrive. I love the Star Wars environment and this is the first MMO that my wife has played with me, so for those two reasons I truly wish that BW will start paying more attention to the legitimate needs of the player base. The sad truth is that more baddies take the time to post on the forums than decent players do, mostly because they're upset that they're bad. They try to blame getting owned on a "poor class balance" and so-on. This is a sad truth that I wish good players would fix by taking the time to give good, analytical and intelligent feedback on the forums.

Now, about the updates. Deception/Infiltration definitely needed a buff to be more competitive, so I appreciate the change in this area, but Madness/Balance could use a small bone as well. Being an infiltration shadow, I'm excited about the change even though I have to admit that I think the changes in their current state will make us slightly OP when used correctly in PvE and PvP both. I also LOVE the change to our survivability.

Another AC that needs some attention is the Guardian Tank. Their threat gen is still hurting slightly. I like where their damage sits with the abilities right now, from a PvP stance as well as PvE, so a possible solution would be to give a threat gen boost to Bladestorm, as it is a necessary tanking ability anyway. Just a suggestion though.

Personally, I like where sage healing is and I like the addition of the self-heal. I also like that the knockback is being changed to frontal cone. The sage/sorc class has immense healing ability, and any healer that complains about not being able to heal themselves through 5 people beating on them is simply rediculous. No single healer should be able to survive through that. Survivability as a sage/sorc healer is fairly dependent on a competent tank and dps that will kill those trying to kill you. The frontal cone will require additional player skill to make proper use of, so I look forward to the opportunity to stand out by using it properly once I've mastered it.

There is, however, one change I'm severely unhappy with. Making it so that Slingers and Snipers have the only 30m cc is rediculous. Melee will now be hopeless in sight of them without something to LoS with. This is a sizable oversight on your part that I'm personally highly disappointed with.

An area that I have to agree with many of the posts in this thread is PvP vs. PvE changes. Too many changes are being made based solely on the PvP experience. Your player-based that stays for the PvE is shrinking, and the current target of your changes will only cause the rate of decay to increase. Please think more carefully about the target of your future updates.

To all of you that wish for an entire ops full of one class type to be able to function as well as a diversified ops, you're being rediculous. If you want each class to be able to do the same thing, the game will lose many of it's unique qualities and it will quickly decline further.
Feel that punch to the jewels? That means you play SWTOR and
expected BW to care about your opinion. Have fun!

TheSunStar's Avatar


TheSunStar
09.06.2012 , 04:16 PM | #568
Quote: Originally Posted by Kynesis View Post
[...]

2. Unnatural Preservation / Force Mend
So... you're granting healers another heal, another button to press with an extremely specific scope...
A healer in trouble is generally GCD limited more than anything else, how exactly does this help?

[...]

If a healer in trouble really is generally GCD limited more than anything else, then i suppose what you are saying is true. How will it help?
However, one way healers can get into trouble is to run out of Force, in which case this free ability would come majorly in handy.
⌐~*TheSunStar
The Lytstar Legacy

hunterraaze's Avatar


hunterraaze
09.06.2012 , 05:29 PM | #569
First off, what armor is that Sorc wearing?

The Sorc upgrades/downgrades are interesting, in some cases, I can see the cone being useful for PvE with crowd control, but on the other hand, like every one else has been saying, when i'm swarmed with mobs, I kind of rely on that to give me some breathing rooms, maybe make them two separate ability's? Cone having maybe more damage in the limited radius, then have the 360 do less damage, maybe? And this is just an idea, probably better off when they raise the level cap, but still throwing it out there, the Power tech/Vanguards ability, can't remember what they are called, but the ones that launch you at the target, with PT, it's through the jet pack, but those ability's, after you launch, you leave a trail of plasma/fuel (just using examples) and the trail stays for x amount of seconds, and can either damage anyone who walks through, reduce movement speed, or paralyze for the duration. Just an idea.
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DarkSaberMaster's Avatar


DarkSaberMaster
09.06.2012 , 05:34 PM | #570
Quote: Originally Posted by Peregrine_Falcon View Post
Thank you for this response. It's very informative.

I now understand that BioWare views the ability to be stun-locked-killed to be 'working as intended.' This is very helpful information because it explains why class balance has gotten worse, not better, since launch. It also tells me that I cannot expect that class balance will ever improve because the SWTOR developers do not understand PvP.

Thank you for explaining this to me. I am now in a better position to decide when to unsubscribe from SWTOR.
Yeah. Pretty much. I play one of those classes that keeps players stunned forever and I know it isn't fun. People keep saying that the resolve system works and we need to stop QQing. Well. Now I know they were right. It was working as intended that I would only see my resolve bar full and cooling down when I was in the re-spawn area. I really have to say thank you to Allison for clarifying that for me that it is working as intended.

Have fun in Stun Wars: The Uncontrolled Republic. I held out faith after the NGE that the game would get better and it never did. I refuse to make the same mistake here.
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