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Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4
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aeterno's Avatar


aeterno
09.06.2012 , 05:15 AM | #531
Quote: Originally Posted by LogicalPremise View Post
Here's what's utterly infuriating.

From the point of view of a healer sorc, the overload change is awful. I'm sure some pithy soul , intend on pretending he's some kind of uber-l33t veteran, will opine that the new method is more precise and requires skill.

Let me explain, shortly, why it is stupid and will not work for PVP or PVE.

PVE:

Pre - Nerf: OL + EB could be used offensively (smashing and stunning a pack and then dropping FS / CL) or defensively (knocking back and stunning so you could drop FS and a bubble and get the heck out). It was hardly "overpowered" and no one -- I repeat, no one complained about it. I've asked in SEVERAL threads for someone to point out where people said this needed to be changed, and no one has.

Post - Nerf: Offensively, the increased range is useless, since the knockback is instant. What the heck can I do with that? Knock back a few melee classes for a second? Defensively, instead of having a choice between using this to shore up defenses, drop bubble, or make the choice to run, now ALL I can do with it is turn , knockback, hit FS and run away. Brilliant.

Again, people will say this is a skill issue. Half your player base is keyboard turning people in greens who don't even read the forums and are casuals. This is not going to "improve" their play experience in any way. It's going to ruin it. Skilled players can compensate, but you already have people saying if this goes through they're done, so it's not a net positive.

From a PVP standpoint, it's even worse. There is ZERO utility for this , and everyone saying otherwise must not be even remotely familiar with PVP. When you have 2 or 3 guys on you, the "instant" speed is offset completely by the need to turn, and instead of being able to position yourself to knock them back where you wanted, now you have to hope there's a position to knock them back that allows you to get everyone in a stupid cone, or miss some and hope you can ride it out.

I'm sure some people like the changes. I don't , and the resolve change and "explaination" just further cements in my mind that these people are not bothering to listen.
Steady on, the rage is getting ridiculous now. Increased range and knock back basically make this a conal force push. And I don't seem to recall many threads disowning force push as useless and with zero utility. I kinda remember a lot of moaning about it, especially from sentinels who always wanted it back in their repertoire.

I get it that you're upset and don't want the skill changed but this "omg this new toy is total crap I want that other one back" hyperbole isn't doing you any favors whatsoever.

Yogol's Avatar


Yogol
09.06.2012 , 05:32 AM | #532
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Consider the following examples under the new system:

ex B: Player A stuns the target for 4 seconds. 4 seconds after the stun is applied, player B stuns the same target for 4 seconds. The target is controlled for a total duration of 8 seconds.
  • Player A stuns the enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = 4 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • 4 seconds later, player B stuns the same enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = existing 4s + new 4s = 8 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • Enemy gains a total of 1600 Resolve for being controlled for 8 seconds
  • Resolve gain rate = 200 per second of stun

Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Consider those same examples under the old system:

ex. B: Player A stuns the target for 4 seconds. 4 seconds after the stun is applied, player B stuns the same target for 4 seconds. The target is controlled for a total duration of 8 seconds.
  • Player A stuns the enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = 4 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • 4 seconds later, player B stuns the same enemy for 4 seconds | effective control duration = existing 4s + new 4s = 8 seconds | enemy gains 800 Resolve
  • Enemy gains a total of 1600 Resolve for being controlled for 8 seconds
  • Resolve gain rate = 200 per second of stun

So... resolve hasn't changed in the case of chain-stuns... there are 1.000 people complaining about the resolve system and nothing has changed when a group chain-stuns someone. Not. A. Thing.

When even the CR posts an example where one of the biggest concern of players clearly isn't addressed, it's hard to keep faith in the game.

Really, really hard.
Yogol. Rebel without a cause. Often without a clue too.
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DarthVladamir's Avatar


DarthVladamir
09.06.2012 , 05:47 AM | #533
Here is an easy fix: lower the cool down on the sage/sorc stun breaker to 30 or a min spec'd or unspec'd in terms of stuns and maybe any other classes. We all agree that there are way to many stuns in game and we'll have to see how the new changes to resolve will work but shortening the cd's on the breakers would be a lot better of a solution to survivability in all PVP and PVE environments.
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MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
09.06.2012 , 06:17 AM | #534
I'll be the first one to admit when I was wrong and after reading somewhat of a clarification in an official post I've come to the conclusion that I probably have been wrong.

Here's how I've interpreted the FW changes: Will have the same AOE as now but will push everyone within a 120 degree cone back 15 meters. So basically a force push

How I probably should have read it: Same mechics as now but the AOE is changed from 8 to 15 meters, within a 120 degree cone.

This is a huge difference and could improve kiting, assuming that we've specced for elctric bindings. It doesnt change anything when we're swarmed though so that's still negative.

Now, the real problem with this new interpretation of what it means is that it doesnt seem to correlate with the problem BW claimed that it was supposed to solve, the issue where unintended players are being affected by the KB AOE.
Up until now, we've, sorcs and sages, used FW as a defensive ability, either to protect ourselves or an objective, and we've always had to be fairly close to the enemy to be able to use it. I can see the ability being used for way more things now that we have a 15 meter radius to play around with, things such as KB'ing people who arent a real threat into acid/fire, protecting team mates who you, with the old mechics would ignore etc. My prediction is that enemies/other classes quickly will refer to it as the "FW spam", a term that I've never come across while using the old mechanics.

tl:dr: I probably read it wrong so the FW change isnt as bad as I thought it was but it's not correlating with BW'es reasons for changing it at all.
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NoaFlux's Avatar


NoaFlux
09.06.2012 , 06:53 AM | #535
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
Hm this post is back-dated to the 31st for some reason, for me at least.

I'm not a huge fan of the force wave changes - knocking them forward is not going to help me get away from them necessarily - but will give me the separation which I use it for anyway. But what I really liked using force wave for was the ability to knock people to my side and back away from me (usually off a bridge or something like in hutt ball). Also knocking people backwards while chasing me - I guess I can be a little more careful and just turn towards them before casting than resume running.
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I already have to worry about using guard 24/7 on top of everything else. Dps don't have to do that. This just makes my character even more difficult then it already was.

NoaFlux's Avatar


NoaFlux
09.06.2012 , 07:06 AM | #536
Quote: Originally Posted by Windybanker View Post
They just made Force Speed remove all stuns and snare and lowered the cooldown to 20s. Those are AWESOME buffs in exchange for the cone Overload.
Yeah well now I have to change around all my buttons, I have to relearn everything, and it's not as fun. The abilities that make up for it don't look cool, and are boring to use....blah blah blah. There is more to this then numbers. Some things are just fun.

NoaFlux's Avatar


NoaFlux
09.06.2012 , 07:22 AM | #537
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
Why don't you ever think about how bad you are making PvE when you make these changes.

Everything in the article say this and that for PvP... Meanwhile scrappers can't dps, sorcs can't heal, assassins can't tank... all because previous changes you have made.

Everyone wanted a nerf to marauders and powertechs, and for sage damage to be internal and elemental like sorc damage is... but what do you do?

You get rid of healer utility (10 meters does not accomodate where healers need to be standing in PvP or PvE).

You get rid of scrapper dps burst, now having to wait 2 minutes for disappearing act so we can use shioot first again.

And don't you think that its bad that you had to create a new ability to solve the sorc healer nerf you did in 1.2?

Overall: Rather pathetic how short-sighted the changes have been. We get it. You care about PvP more than fun PvE gameplay.

Have fun losing more subs.
Yeah why would they even mess with PvP? On my server PvP queue is always (even last night) between 2-5 minutes or less. I had like 3 instant queues out of 6 last night. Obviously people are playing PvP and enjoying it. So why would you change things around?

In addition I hear PvE'rs screaming for help 24-7 in gen chat. Why not prioritize and fix that first?

NoaFlux's Avatar


NoaFlux
09.06.2012 , 07:24 AM | #538
Quote: Originally Posted by SNCommand View Post
For anyone complaining about the overload/force wave being turned into a cone rather than a circle, yes it was one of the primary escape attempts for trapped sorcerers and sages before, but that is now given to force speed which has now a lowered cooldown and grants immunity from all incapacitating effects, the only thing lost is the fun ability to push several people to their doom at once
EXACTLY. oh...are playing games not about FUN???

and btw there is no "doom" involved. Far from it. Maybe 400 to 600 damage that's it. In turn 3 of you come back and kill me with an ability that does 3000.

NoaFlux's Avatar


NoaFlux
09.06.2012 , 07:27 AM | #539
Quote: Originally Posted by Mikeni View Post
This ^
ARE YOU CRAZY? I THOUGH GAMES WERE ABOUT FUN? GUESS NOT. USING FORCE SPEED ETC. is not going to be fun, I already use it constantly. Variation is fun, unpredictability is fun, I never had a problem with stuns, I have three ways out of it...so that's not even part of the argument.

Peregrine_Falcon's Avatar


Peregrine_Falcon
09.06.2012 , 07:32 AM | #540
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
The only difference here is that the enemy is never treated to undue Resolve gains. Resolve gain always matches the amount of absolute control time. Two coordinated players can control a target as long as ever, but no longer than ever before.
Thank you for this response. It's very informative.

I now understand that BioWare views the ability to be stun-locked-killed to be 'working as intended.' This is very helpful information because it explains why class balance has gotten worse, not better, since launch. It also tells me that I cannot expect that class balance will ever improve because the SWTOR developers do not understand PvP.

Thank you for explaining this to me. I am now in a better position to decide when to unsubscribe from SWTOR.
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