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Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

RogueNights's Avatar


RogueNights
09.05.2012 , 08:12 PM | #511
My biggest question is what else is changing for assassins??? Also more details please...

They will have unlimited mobility if only the changes as described go in. So for force speed:

New 20 Second Base CD - 10 Seconds(Lighning Recovery) - 5 Seconds Avoidance = 5 Seconds???

Call me crazy but i'd say its probably safe to guess that lightning recovery is going away or at least lowered to 5 seconds?

Also will point out that magnetism could be huge combined w/ eye of the storm and the 10s reduced cooldown from set bonus (what allows you to use spike outside of stealth). Pretty much would be a spammable ultimate ball carrier killer and ultimate start kiting move... Jugs and Marauders will feel some serious pain from it if its not above tier 3 or 4 in deception or madness trees. Also combined w/ even a 10s speed/rootbreak could see it getting seriously broken..
Yanny - Assassin LVL 50 - Drooga's Pleasure Barge, Veebo Lunx

Bugattiboy's Avatar


Bugattiboy
09.05.2012 , 08:16 PM | #512
Quote: Originally Posted by DorkTrooper View Post
Every class balance change makes me wish PvP and PvE had totally separate specs.
Ame to that brother.

Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Don't worry, maybe they'll sell CC breaker potions in the store.
What is this "maybe"? This is EA we are talking about. If it makes money, they do it. No matter how shameful/

Quote: Originally Posted by Peregrine_Falcon View Post
Healers are already too squishy in PvP and now you nerfed their survivability even further by turning Overload and Force Wave into cones. Really?

"The way control abilities were designed encouraged this behavior, and the resulting gameplay could be frustrating."
How do you not understand that making Resolve build slower is only going to increase the frequency of the already frustrating and rage-quit inducing stun-locking in PvP?

And you're doing it because it'll benefit unorganized PuGs? How do you not realize that anything that makes things easier for unorganized PuGs will benefit organized pre-made teams even more? This will only further increase the performance gap between PuGs and pre-mades. Which means more frustration and rage-quitting on PuGs, which means the organized PvPers have even less opposition to fight against.

I truly don't mean to sound rude Mr. Peckenpaugh, but do you actually PvP in this game? I don't mean against your fellow developers but against real organized players? I ask because I do and while I'm far from being one of the best PvPers in this game (not even close), even I can see how these changes will only makes things worse.
None of the devs actually play the game they create. It's how they have such crappy updates. If they actually played what they release then would actually have decent updates and fixes. God help us all when that happens.

Quote: Originally Posted by Chessalavakia View Post
Don't break something that works.
But, that EA's way of knowing it worked in the first place.

Quote: Originally Posted by miglor View Post
Once again PVP QQ's ruin it for PVE folks. Thanks BW!
Amen brother. Preach it.

Quote: Originally Posted by moiraesfate View Post
And so it begins. PvP'rs demanding changes that screw over PvE. I thought that maybe, just once, we'd have a PvE centric game.
Quote for truth. I had hoped just the same as you, but then I remembered this is EA we are talking about.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rafkin View Post
So you're taking the biggest complaint pvpers have, too many stuns, and making it worse? We'll gain even LESS resolve?

So much for reading feedback. Worst design team ever.
What is really left to say that hasn't already been said.

Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Hey everyone - thanks for your feedback on the classes blog! We're reading your questions and concerns and will work on getting answers to some of the common ones. Today I spoke to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) and Rob Hinkle (Senior PvP Designer) about the changes to Resolve in relation to coordinated and uncoordinated teams, which many of you have questions or concerns about.

First of all, please do keep in mind that reading about changes and experiencing them can be different. We are looking forward to your feedback once you've had some time to see these changes when the PTS becomes available!
Oh you don't EA. You lost the privilege of me giving you benefit of the YEARS ago!! Anything that is EA is a piece of shďt until proven otherwise.
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I think the Stun Wars are still going to continue, but now are going to take a back seat to the Steath Wars.

I know this your first MMO BioWare. It was nice little experiment, but it failed...HARD. OK, it's at the very least debatable whether or not you did PvE right. OK. The updates haven't been completely 100% pure bad. There have been a FEW goodies in each patch.

If I wasn't getting my sub for free I wouldn't been gone already.
I didn't think anything could top the stupidity of no new group content in Fallen Empire...

...then Level Sync happened.

Ubuu's Avatar


Ubuu
09.05.2012 , 08:38 PM | #513
lol the only response to this thread was to talk about Resolve? are ya kidding me? SAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGEDSAGES DO NOT WANT FORCE WAVE CHANGED

get the hint?

RLWalker's Avatar


RLWalker
09.05.2012 , 09:14 PM | #514
The changes look pretty good to me. Most likely there will be some other, smaller adjustments that didn't make the article.

The change to resolve is a good one. It was quite frustrating to see the ball carrier unnecessarily get full resolve before walking across a fire trap or heading to the score line. I think the change to inquisitor/mercenary stun range will cut down a lot of the "stun wars" stuff being talked about. I know as an assassin the 30m range was absolutely huge. It meant I could stun someone when on a different level of the catwalk, or across two fire traps. This simply won't be possible anymore. It's a nerf to me, but I'm more than happy to cut down some of the critical stun opportunities (it's often me getting stunned and frustrated anyways).

The new overload is ok, I guess. I agree with Austin that there were a lot of times when I didn't want to hit people 360. This often happens of the catwalks - the primary target gets knocked off and everyone else gets punted back a few yards on the same catwalk. So in the end I just added a bunch of resolve to someone I wasn't even trying to knock off. The only really important thing for me is the change to instant knockback. This is going to make control a lot better.

Merc/Sorc changes look really well done. Barely any negative effects to PvE performance. Mercs are going to love interrupts and lightning sorcs are going to love *not* being interrupted. Healing sorcs get to clear roots/snares plus get immunity. The buff to backlash is really helpful too. Please don't say overload is a critical PvE skill - the uses for it are pretty rare and really not affected by the change.

Deception finally gets some much needed buffs. I believe that the changes will bring deception more in line with other classes in both PvE and PvP (can't say for certain without analysis though).

Edit: Misread the deception changes. It won't be as big a dps boost as I thought.

Overall what I see in these notes are:
1. Reduction in stun/knockback frequency.
2. Some of the worst PvP specs (deception, corruption, lightning, arsenal, bodyguard) get buffed.
3. One of the worst PvE dps specs (deception) gets a buff.

I am hoping that the top performing specs in PvE and PvP get a slight nerf in 1.4. Operative dps needs a few more changes to make it effective.

BigSkoop's Avatar


BigSkoop
09.05.2012 , 10:19 PM | #515
So now that the resolve bar is going to take forever to fill up with this new so called balance garbage, is the cool down for stun breakers like resolute still going to be 2 mins? If the cooldown is not lowered to maybe a minute then what is the use of having it? Lets face it, BW keeps running this game into the ground. Unfortunately, I dont see this game lasting another year because they will lose more subs and not be able to fund the game, they already let go a bunch of devs to cut costs last month so it's hard for me to get my hopes up that they will actually fix things. This thread is probably a lost cause because the devs wont read it anyways.

Destoroyah's Avatar


Destoroyah
09.05.2012 , 11:23 PM | #516
Change the commandos heal cast reduction to the barrier proc instead of our high damage proc.

Timias's Avatar


Timias
09.05.2012 , 11:42 PM | #517
Querstion directed at Timias:
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthOvertone View Post
Please explain how any of the changes are gamebreaking for you in PvE land.
Ever have a Stealthkiller pop in behind you while you're working on the mobs in Denova? No? Guess not. Try it sometime.
Ever have a Stealthkiller pop in behind your healer who's 20m away in Denova? Try your electrocute .. no DPS while you run (as a Ranged DPS) to stun him to give your healer a break. Some mobs don't have Agro Tables, so saying the Tank needs to take care of it is BS. After all, Opreations ARE Teamwork.

Nice to see you play a Sorcerer and a Sage

aeterno's Avatar


aeterno
09.06.2012 , 12:27 AM | #518
Only thing that baffles me is why they're basically making easier to stunlock people... Yea in pugs you get penalized for badly timed double ccs but I would have thought that generally speaking the cc immunity gained from that was far less frustrating on a whole than the cc heavy combat in the first place. Now every pug gets training wheels to shutting people down for 8 sec?

I must have missed all the "raaaage ball carrier immune and scored cos of a scrub cast" threads... easy to miss amongst all the "swtor: cc wars suck" ones tbh. I'm really really intrigued by what metrics BW gagues issues that need addressing at this stage lol.

Well guess we need to wait and see how the vision of the new folks in charge of this after georg left pans out. No sense to cry till at least pts.

Kynesis's Avatar


Kynesis
09.06.2012 , 12:47 AM | #519
The proposed changes are not well considered, they don't adhere to the reasoning set forth and the exceptions are massive contradictions.

I'm sure the whole team is under tremendous pressure but your basic reasoning is from another world.
I have to think your internal testers declared that these are important issues - in which case you need different testers, the feedback they've given you is complete garbage.

However, you've stumbled onto some actual issues in the process:

1. Mercenaries and Commando's need a (ranged) interrupt.
The exclusion of an interrupt was never explained, other than the devs saying that it's intended design. I can't come up with a compelling reason, even at extreme possibilities for why Mercs and Commando's should be the only ones to be excluded in the first place.

2. Rocket punch knockback
How might anybody come to the conclusion that the tiny little knockback might be used for any kind of escape?
I've never encountered anybody anywhere who had thought or envisioned at any time that using it to somehow 'escape' might be a good idea. If however you can (somehow) use it as an escape i would honestly love to see it on youtube, seriously there should be a huge prize if anybody can pull it off.

3. Tracer Lock / Charged Barrel
This is nice, it contributes to a diversity of gameplay to a class that naturally has hybrid aspects.

4. A snare on Kolto Residue
Should be talented. 50% is a massive snare, you can almost guarantee that its purpose would be transformed from healing to snaring.

5. Peacekeeper / Frontline Medic
Another good mechanic for encouraging more diverse play.

Sorcs / Sages
1. Force Speed 20sec CD
More mobility is great but this really is the cheapest of all possible solutions.

2. Unnatural Preservation / Force Mend
So... you're granting healers another heal, another button to press with an extremely specific scope...
A healer in trouble is generally GCD limited more than anything else, how exactly does this help?

3. Dark Resillience / Valiance is certainly an outlier talent that needs more functionality... but we'd be better served if it were replaced entirely. Making it more attractive to PVPers however might harm more than help as taking those points means fewer points on more important talents.

4. Fadeout / Egress removing roots & snares
Assassin tanks get this, it's quite helpful and absolutely a good thing for Sorcs & Sages - on a 20sec CD however they'll be zipping all over the place. Combined with their other rather potent utility abilities I can imagine them absolutely dominating the endzones of Huttball. Not sure about Voidstar but there's real potential..

5. Polarity Shift / Mental Alacrity
This is a good change, more caster classes in games should have windows during which they're uninterruptible. Gear disparity will be very noticeable though, healers who can't be interrupted can only be killed if you can out-damage their healing - which again, without huge gear disparity is generally impossible.

6. Backlash / Kinetic Collapse not breaking on damage
You do realise that what you have here is an unpredictable, non-telegraphed AOE stun.
Again, nice to have but it is completely counter to your base reasoning for such changes.


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Prior to Game Update 1.4, stealth classes and specs had an “infiltrate and eliminate” focus that effectively served solo or small team gameplay, but the specs that focused on stealth (Infiltration/Deception, Scrapper/Concealment) weren’t valued very highly for group gameplay...
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... and so your solution to 'too much lone wolf' style gameplay is to make their Vanish and stealth options more available and desirable?
I don't see how does that make any sense - surely the way to encourage more 'team play' is to give them more opportunities to contribute to the team and to remain in the vicinity of their team?

.. and the rest reinforces their reliance on burst damage - the chief complaint in all games against stealth classes is that there's often very little that can be done to counter an ambush, ambush combat is nearly always a one-sided affair and is the antithesis of the "... make a comeback" philosophy.

Amodin's Avatar


Amodin
09.06.2012 , 12:49 AM | #520
And, yet again - the PvP community dominating the overall mechanics of the game in yet another MMO.

Disappointed.