Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

NoaFlux's Avatar


NoaFlux
09.05.2012 , 06:27 PM | #501
I am trying to protect Force Wave!! So I made this poll. All opinions are welcome!!

http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/566526

For those who don't trust links please go to misterpoll.com and search for "Force Wave". *At the moment misterpoll.com has to review this before it becomes available in the directory or search.

**Yes I know misterpoll.com is kinda trashy put it's the only poll site I could find that was searchable (for those who don't want to click on links from unknown people which can be dangerous).

Thanks!

ClavisN's Avatar


ClavisN
09.05.2012 , 06:34 PM | #502
This sucks.

Basically, and for most practical purposes, Sage/Sorcs lose one of their most potent abilities completely.

Because I don't stand at or near 10 meters, I will have to remove ForceStun
- from my normal rotations, even though it is quite powerful
- worse yet, from my list of potential interrupts. That List is now down to 1 at 30 meters. 1 interrupt against certain enemies is completely insufficient.

The Force Wave change is bad as well. That used to be my standard tool against crowding melee mobs. The stun it delivered was at least as valuable as the knockback. Now, its not. I don't really see how fleeing can replace that. Force wave gave me breathing room to regain initiative and get the upper hand on attacking. Fleeing will just get me out of sight and thus reset the whole encounter (thanks to the royally stupid insta-heal NPCs get when leaving combat)

Bad Idea.

And I agree with the others who complained about how Bioware's constant PvP tinkering keeps creating a stream of unintended trouble for PvE players. Stop it, already. Bioware!

Mharz's Avatar


Mharz
09.05.2012 , 06:49 PM | #503
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post

In the live game, being affected by two stuns simultaneously only controls you for 4 seconds, but it gives you full Resolve. To be plain, this makes escaping a rampaging melee player very, very difficult. It's directly related to concerns we see regarding overpowered melee and them being inescapable. Going immune after only 4 seconds of control strongly favors the one being controlled.

Allison, thanks for this post. I know you're just the messenger and my comments are directed respectfully at others.

Dear devs.. this sums up the problem. Let me say this as clearly as possible.

THERE ARE TOO MANY CCs IN THE GAME.

THIS MAKES PVP AWFUL.

NO ONE ENJOYS LONG PERIODS WHERE YOU CAN'T CONTROL YOUR CHARACTER.


If you don't get this, if you can't understand this on a fundamental level you not only fail at game design but you fail to understand people (not just gamers) and what makes for a good time.

Lets make it simple: 500 points of Resolve per second of ANY control that decays at a rate of 100 points a second and during decay you are TOTALLY IMMUNE to further CCs.
#The Furious Angels#
Mharz - Master of Aequitas
Website|The Signal|HQ
Libertas|Emeritus|Veritas|Aequitas|Praelium|Ad Astra|Velox

Tooie's Avatar


Tooie
09.05.2012 , 06:52 PM | #504
Quote: Originally Posted by ClavisN View Post
This sucks.

Basically, and for most practical purposes, Sage/Sorcs lose one of their most potent abilities completely.

Because I don't stand at or near 10 meters, I will have to remove ForceStun
- from my normal rotations, even though it is quite powerful
- worse yet, from my list of potential interrupts. That List is now down to 1 at 30 meters. 1 interrupt against certain enemies is completely insufficient.

The Force Wave change is bad as well. That used to be my standard tool against crowding melee mobs. The stun it delivered was at least as valuable as the knockback. Now, its not. I don't really see how fleeing can replace that. Force wave gave me breathing room to regain initiative and get the upper hand on attacking. Fleeing will just get me out of sight and thus reset the whole encounter (thanks to the royally stupid insta-heal NPCs get when leaving combat)

Bad Idea.

And I agree with the others who complained about how Bioware's constant PvP tinkering keeps creating a stream of unintended trouble for PvE players. Stop it, already. Bioware!
I agree with some changes just for pvp will make problems in pve thats one thing bioware needs to do is have these changes separate from pvp and pve that way theirs no problems in other words going pvp flagged will have these changes in place not flagged will remove those changes or go into a warzone and the changes will be inplace etc etc.
Pandorra - Sorcerer // Vadanoth - Juggernaut
Alyissa - Sentinel
Celiea Legacy

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
09.05.2012 , 06:53 PM | #505
Quote: Originally Posted by Lamonte View Post
Overall, I'm very disappointed with the direction of this proposed patch.

"Electro Dart and Cryo Grenade now have a 10-meter range.
Electrocute and Force Stun now have a 10-meter range."

These i can understand, they can be abused now with being insta cast 30 meters can be a bit much. With this change you wont have quite as many chain stuns in effect at once if they have to be up close to cast them.

"In addition, while Overload and Force Wave make for great escape abilities, they have done so previously at a cost to the overall PvP experience. What we want for these abilities is to create distance between you and your target(s), but what frequently occurs is a bad experience for incidental nearby enemies that aren’t your intended target(s). Jet Boost and Concussion Charge behave similarly, but they are limited to the Mercenary and Commando. Changing them has a less effective impact on the game, and those Advanced Classes play better with a stronger ability on a longer cooldown.

Overload and Force Wave have been redesigned. These abilities now knock back all targets within a 15-meter 120-degree cone in front of you. Furthermore, these abilities now knock back all potential targets instantly; they no longer wait for an animation note at the end of the ability animation."


This is just bad, bad... incidental nearby enemies that aren’t your intended target(s) ?? I'm sorry, but any enemy around me in a 360 degree 8 meter radius is my intended target. As others have said, you're making getting away from enemies even more difficult than it already is now. A lot of the time it is enemies behind you whacking on your behind that you want to put some space between them and you. So now, to knock them back I'd have to stop running forward... turn around and moonwalk slowly, activate force wave, then turn back around again to run away.... how in the world is that supposed to help my survivability? OK, you've extended the knockback area of effect 15 meters......only in front of me. Guess what? Being that the enemy was in front of me, other than cases of ledges and the enemy being slightly off to the side being knocked off said ledge, I'm still going to have to run through the enemy to get where I'm going.
Looks like Jet Boost and Concussion Charge are going to remain the same because those abilities are only used by 2 classes "Changing them has a less effective impact on the game"? Are you kidding me? Really?
To be clear, No, I don't want mercs and commandos to be nerfed in the same way consulars and inquisitors are having done to them. This nerf to cosulars and inquisitors is going to be very detrimental to their survivability.
The only positive thing with the change is enemies getitng knockbacked instantly instead of after the animation runs its course.

"We’ve also made adjustments to the Resolve system in Game Update 1.4. We’ve adjusted the gain logic of Resolve such that simultaneous and overlapping control effects no longer linearly add together their Resolve gain values. Instead, using a crowd control ability on an already controlled target now applies reasonable Resolve gain values by comparing the incoming control effect to the greatest of existing control effects."

My biggest gripe with pvp is getting chained stunned by multiple enemies and die without even being able to move 5 meters before dieing. This change is going to make this much, much worse. So having "reasonable Resolve gain values" applied is going to mean the enemy can chain stun a target many more times before the resolve bar fills up. This is going to translate into targets rarely making it to the goal line unless they are getting solid heals. You should really be looking into diminishing the effects of multiple stuns at once, not allowing more stuns to happen before the resolve bar gets filled up.

"Mercenaries and Commandos now have a 30-meter interrupt, Disabling Shot. This ability interrupts the target's current action and prevents that ability from being used for the next 4 seconds. This ability can be trained at level 18."

This is a welcome change. Mercs and Commandos are like the red-headed stepchildren being the only classes not able to interrupt.

"Afterburners/Concussive Force: Rocket Punch/Stockstrike now immobilizes the target for 4 seconds instead of knocking it back. Damage caused after 2 seconds ends the effect. The knockback previously caused by this skill generated enough Resolve that it was actually detrimental to the Mercenary/Commando’s ability to further escape the attacker."
One of my strategies in Huttball is to stockstrike an enemy off the ledge that's waiting there by the firepit. Or in voidstar knocking them off the bridge. Yes, it sucks when getting knocked off ledge/bridge, but that is the risk one takes standing on a ledge/bridge. How about adjusting how stockstrike/rocket punch gererates resolve instead of taking away our knockback.
If this change goes live, I'll be specing out of concusive force. It's not a matter me saying don't change this or else, I'm just informing you i'm not going to put 2 points into the ability if there the knockback for stockstrike isn't there. The 4 meter extra knockback for concussion charge is nice, but i only speced concussive force because of the knockback for stockstrike.

I'm not going to get into the healing changes because I hate healing and avoid that role like the plague. I'll leave the feedback on that subject to the healers out there.

"Polarity Shift/Mental Alacrity now additionally grants immunity to interrupts for the duration. Improved visual FX to demonstrate this effect."
This is a big boon for sorcs/sages, but my big concern is trying to kill a healer sorc/sage is going to be near impossible during this duration unless there are multiple targets beating on him/her.

"In the case of Infiltration/Deception, the spec’s fragility was of great concern to many players, insofar as it didn’t encourage the spec to contribute well to lengthy fights or lend support to teammates."
In pvp it was very frustrating killing a target and even though the fight is over, a teammate somewhere is fighting and I can't restealth. Not being able to stealth even though I am not in combat doesn't allow me to contribute to lengthy fights.
My operative's burst is averageish in pvp, but in pve is subpar. There is a reason why groups don't want dps scoundrels/operatives in their pve groups(mainly talking operations here, HM FPs have been watered down so much, it doesn't take much dps). This patch does nothing to correct this issue.

"Kinetic Field/Entropic Field has been redesigned. Now critical hits cause you to build a Kinetic/Entropic Field, increasing damage reduction by 1% per point per stack. Stacks up to 3 times."
I know you moved the original effect to fade, but you had an ability that gave up to 30% reduction in area effect damage and give in return up to 3% damage reduction after criting someone 3 times. Seem such a minimal gain for a squishy cloth wearer spec that doesn't have the armor buff. This would make more sense for a darkness spec. Which speaking of that... So is this going to be a 1 point talent skill now?

"Clairvoyant Strike/Voltaic Slash: Using Project/Shock no longer consumes the buff provided by this ability. This change was made to better synergize with Spinning Strike/Assassinate during execute phases."
This sounds really great if I'm reading this correctly. So the buff only goes away if you stop using Clairvoyant Strike/Voltaic Slash long enough for the buff to wear off?

After reading the loving that shadows/assasins are getting, why so little for scoundrels/operatives? These changes aren't going to change much for ops/scounds viability in groups.
Why do players seems to know much better than your lead designer the issues with your combat dynamics?

You guys are also stating some classes are overpowered, so how about improving the others instead of making the existing ones worse?

Quote: Originally Posted by Sundragon View Post
Yes, we know......you act like we didn't read what you posted.

The problem isn't that someone got lots of resolve fast and thus unstoppable, the problem is that we are getting stunned left and right and can't move. All you've done is insure that we will continue to be stunned as long as possible under a coordinated attack, even if the attack isn't coordinated.

So let me make it a bit clearer.

Pre 1.4 Scenario 1: Coordinated team stun locks you for 8 seconds and you die.
Pre 1.4 Scenario 2: Uncoordinated team can only stun lock you for 4 seconds because they stacked your resolve and gives you a slim chance to do something to survive.
Pre 1.4 Average stun-lock = 6 seconds (assuming 50% likelihood of each scenario)

Post 1.4 Scenario 1: Coordinated team stun locks you for 8 seconds and you die.
Post 1.4 Scenario 2: Uncoordinated team can now stun lock you for 8 seconds because your resolve isn't filling up as fast, and you die.
Post 1.4 Average stun-lock = 8 seconds

As you can see with this remarkably simple analysis/math, the players are going to be stunned MORE ON AVERAGE after the patch, although the MAXIMUM REMAINS UNCHANGED.

We can debate all day about the merits of it, but the math is the math is the math. The average stun lock increases Post 1.4. It isn't hard man.

Edit: It's clear that you believe the problem is that we don't have enough stun-locking in PvP to reduce the effectiveness of certain classes; hence your focus on making more time available to be stunned. In exchange, you shorten the range of some stuns (snipers/gunslingers get to keep their 30m stun, while sorc/sage do not despite wearing light armor) and nerf the effectiveness of the knockback by making it frontal only based.

Maybe instead of making it easier to stunlock classes that appear to be "overpowered" (and for god's sake don't say you don't know which ones are overpowered, its the classes everyone spams in general chat looking for for ranked warzones), perhaps either lower their dps or increase the dps/CC/armor/whatever of the underpowered classes that are not wanted for ranked warzones. Geez man, it's pretty simple stuff. Instead you just made it so that on average people are going to be stunned more (yes, as I said before, the max remains unchanged).

Patch 1.4 should take the least desired PvP class and throw them a few buffs that are amplified based upon +expertise (this way it doesn't impact PvE). Done, move on to the next one. See how smart that was? I didn't do anything to PvE, and I didn't nerf anyone. Amazing, I know.
^ This is will be what happen when the patch goes live. People will get ganked even more.

Let's step back a bit:
  • You guys @BioWare acknowledged there issues with classes being unstoppable in PvP... which only impacts Hutball.
  • Game is already being called StunWars in PvP.

Being stunned is the exact same experience as having our keyboard taken away from ourselves.

I've been stun locked to death hundreds of times in PvP and I can assure you, this is by far the most frustating feeling in TOR PvP ever. Some time you'd just want to throw your keyboard through the window. You know the cycle: resapawn => run => stun => ganked => rinse and repeat. Eventually we're being able to shoot twice before dying.

Please have a senior designer step down and explain to me how that's fun for the players on both side of the stun?

And yet instead of adding roots to fill in resolve and speed up the resolve filling for most of the skills you're going to reduce it, only to "fix" one WZ issue. When you could have added new mechanisms in Hutt ball (only) to prevent the issue.

=> All in all you're not mitigating the stun/resolve issue, you are making it worse, way worse.


Why do you guys gives us the feeling you are intentionally sabotaging the game?
  • People ask for less stun lock: you add more
  • People ask for more gear customization: you make removing mods insanely costly and don't allow set bonuses transfer
  • People ask for free roaming space sim: you dedicate a whole team to add "end content" space missions
  • People tell you they don't like the 1.2 gear, you admit it's far from good and yet you display it in all your new pics, ads and videos.
  • People ask for open world PvP: you add a new WZ
  • People ask for very well known planets: you add the less desired not even mentioned planet.
  • People ask to buff commando and mercs against melee and yet you remove their KD and reduce the range of their skills

What is it that your execs don't understand?

DarthSabreth's Avatar


DarthSabreth
09.05.2012 , 07:22 PM | #506
Looks like sorcs will be the new FOTOM in hutt ball now

•Force Speed now has a 20-second cooldown (down from 30) for all Consulars and Inquisitors.

•Fadeout/Egress has been redesigned. Now causes Force Speed to remove all roots and snares and grant immunity to roots and snares for the duration

•Polarity Shift/Mental Alacrity now additionally grants immunity to interrupts for the duration. Improved visual FX to demonstrate this effect.

•Backlash/Kinetic Collapse: The incapacitation effect caused by this skill no longer breaks on damage.

/sigh
"I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire!" Rip .

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
09.05.2012 , 07:22 PM | #507
Quote: Originally Posted by Calzaghe View Post
Well the small amount of Trooper Commandos left on our small thread of the class forums have reacted fantastically well to this latest news update.

I, for one, cannot wait to get molested by everything that moves come 1.4.

I just pray they lower our heal range to 10 meters ontop of this.
Well I play a gunnery commando and I can say both the 10m lowering range and the removal of KD stinks.

Now if you play a healer commando that's another story.

Sundragon's Avatar


Sundragon
09.05.2012 , 07:31 PM | #508
Hey Allison:

Tell me how my math/analysis is wrong on the following, I'd love to hear it:

Pre 1.4 Scenario 1: Coordinated team stun locks you for 8 seconds and you die.
Pre 1.4 Scenario 2: Uncoordinated team can only stun lock you for 4 seconds because they stacked your resolve and gives you a slim chance to do something to survive.
Pre 1.4 Average stun-lock = 6 seconds (assuming 50% likelihood of each scenario)

Post 1.4 Scenario 1: Coordinated team stun locks you for 8 seconds and you die.
Post 1.4 Scenario 2: Uncoordinated team can now stun lock you for 8 seconds because your resolve isn't filling up as fast, and you die.
Post 1.4 Average stun-lock = 8 seconds

Seriously, the average time spent stun-locked is increased, not decreased. Please, please tell me my math/analysis is flawed. I know it isn't, but I'd be fascinated by the developers insight into how i'm wrong and they are right. The only difference now is that most stuns require a shorter range, but desired classes in RWZs like snipers/gunslingers still have a 30m range stun post 1.4.

We all know you don't want to "nerf" the overpowered class, so instead you thought of ways to stun-lock them to reduce their effectiveness. But as a result, you'd allowed everyone to get stun-locked even more.

Why can't you redesign some skills to also benefit from +expertise instead of the basic stats used in PvE? This would allow the developers to customize damage/mitigation/whatever to PvP and not effect PvE players. For instance, I know that at around 1250 expertise my damage bonus is about 20-22% (I forget exactly), but why not also allow my bonus damage stat to also benefit from +expertise like it does from say Willpower and power? That way +expertise has a a doubling effect, and allows you to customize the effects for PvP without impacting PvE. So my DPS sorc could actually do a lot more damage in warzones, but would be unaffected in PvE. This is so simple. Instead, all you have done is increase the average time a player can spend stun-locked.

Let me be crystal clear: We don't want to spend more time (on average) being stunned. We want classes to be balanced in PvP. While nerfs are sometimes the way to do it, the more beneficial way is to buff the underpowered classes. If you don't want to buff them too much for PvE, then make their damage/healing also be dependent upon +expertise. If you want to figure out which classes need buffs, just watch general chat when people are looking to form ranked warzones.

This is really simple stuff. It amazes me how messed up/complicated you have made it.
█||||(•)||||█Ξ███████████████████)

Sundragon's Avatar


Sundragon
09.05.2012 , 07:39 PM | #509
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSabreth View Post
Looks like sorcs will be the new FOTOM in hutt ball now

•Force Speed now has a 20-second cooldown (down from 30) for all Consulars and Inquisitors.

•Fadeout/Egress has been redesigned. Now causes Force Speed to remove all roots and snares and grant immunity to roots and snares for the duration

•Polarity Shift/Mental Alacrity now additionally grants immunity to interrupts for the duration. Improved visual FX to demonstrate this effect.

•Backlash/Kinetic Collapse: The incapacitation effect caused by this skill no longer breaks on damage.

/sigh
Let me help you out there.

1) Force speed can already be spec'd for 20 seconds. I have a 20-second cooldown as of right now. It helps (clearly), but we are still considered very squishy. Remember, force speed lasts for a whopping 2 seconds.

2) Fadeout/Egress only applies to healers; DPS sorc/sage don't get this. If a healer is running, he/she isn't healing. A healer that isn't healing isn't an effective healer. They are most likely trying to LOS their attacker, which often puts them in LOS issues with their potential team-mates needing heals.

3) Polarity Shift/Mental Alacrity is unused in PvP because DPS sorcs/sage almost always use insta-cast spells or channeled spells with no cooldown. As a result, i see about 0% of DPS sorc/sages benefiting from it. I see 0% of healers benefiting from it, since it's pretty high up the DPS tree. It might make it worthwhile to go high up one of the DPS trees to get the buff for 10 seconds, but I doubt it.

You forgot to mention the stun range nerf combined with the overload nerf, in exchange for a modest self-heal every 30 seconds.
█||||(•)||||█Ξ███████████████████)

Metalmac's Avatar


Metalmac
09.05.2012 , 07:54 PM | #510
Quote: Originally Posted by ClavisN View Post
This sucks.

Basically, and for most practical purposes, Sage/Sorcs lose one of their most potent abilities completely.

Because I don't stand at or near 10 meters, I will have to remove ForceStun
- from my normal rotations, even though it is quite powerful
- worse yet, from my list of potential interrupts. That List is now down to 1 at 30 meters. 1 interrupt against certain enemies is completely insufficient.

The Force Wave change is bad as well. That used to be my standard tool against crowding melee mobs. The stun it delivered was at least as valuable as the knockback. Now, its not. I don't really see how fleeing can replace that. Force wave gave me breathing room to regain initiative and get the upper hand on attacking. Fleeing will just get me out of sight and thus reset the whole encounter (thanks to the royally stupid insta-heal NPCs get when leaving combat)

Bad Idea.

And I agree with the others who complained about how Bioware's constant PvP tinkering keeps creating a stream of unintended trouble for PvE players. Stop it, already. Bioware!

Defining Ability for Balance Sage is Sever Force, so a long range stuns is gone?

Also as interupt range is now 10 meters what the hell am I going to do when something is shooting me from 30 meters?