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Community Round-Up: August 29th, 2012

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Community Round-Up: August 29th, 2012
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Nee-Elder's Avatar


Nee-Elder
08.31.2012 , 06:08 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandicus View Post
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...ghlight=orange

Your logic is the same as the one in this thread.

Also, you're playing a false victim. You were not accused of being "mean".

Long story short, a feature that you desire is not necessarily something that the community desires. Just because SWTOR has lost subs and some features that you wanted were not implemented, does not establish causation or a high level of apparent desire for the particular elements that you desire.

Just an fyi, I want sandbox elements too, and in my personal priority list they're above the new raid and WZ. That doesn't change the flaws in your logic.
Hmm i didn't realize my questions were all rhetorical lol. Okay, if no one wants to answer them, then try this:

If TOR maintained everything is has now (and plans to have) but started adding some 'sandbox type' elements (as well as other 'Quality of Life' features that resemble what MMORPG's are supposed to be in their purest form) to help promote more PLAYER-driven content, would 'you' cancel your subscription?

Oh and btw: There is no "community" in TOR. There are no chat-bubbles, no player-cities, no guild ships, no reason to open-world pvp, no player-controlled events, no audience-viewing of Warzones, no pod-races, no inter-player space combat, etc. etc. etc. etc. --- Nothing much to make one feel as if we're connected to a Massively Multiplayer multi-planet multi-factional WAR...except for 2 obscure 'Live Events' and 1 spam-filled General Chat.

Therefore, my point is: The game is already going Free-to-Play...servers are already shutdown...What harm could it do to start taking things from the 'Wall of Crazy' and make them Wall of Reality?

Seriously BioWare, suck up whatever pride you have left and just concede that 'your way' was indeed effective for Level 1 to 50...but after that, it has failed miserably. You've already gone back on almost all your grand proclamations anyway (see early promo Videos) , so isn't it time now to start thinking outside the box?
I love(d) Pre-CU, CU, JTL, SWG, EMU, and TOR. Yeah that's right: *all* of them.
TEAMISB

Vandicus's Avatar


Vandicus
08.31.2012 , 06:12 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Nee-Elder View Post
Hmm i didn't realize my questions were all rhetorical lol. Okay, if no one wants to answer them, then try this:

If TOR maintained everything is has now (and plans to have) but started adding some 'sandbox type' elements (as well as other 'Quality of Life' features that resemble what MMORPG's are supposed to be in their purest form) to help promote more PLAYER-driven content, would 'you' cancel your subscription?

Oh and btw: There is no "community" in TOR. There are no chat-bubbles, no player-cities, no guild ships, no reason to open-world pvp, no player-controlled events, no audience-viewing of Warzones, no pod-races, no inter-player space combat, etc. etc. etc. etc. --- Nothing much to make one feel as if we're connected to a Massively Multiplayer multi-planet multi-factional WAR...except for 2 obscure 'Live Events' and 1 spam-filled General Chat.

Therefore, my point is: The game is already going Free-to-Play...servers are already shutdown...What harm could it do to start taking things from the 'Wall of Crazy' and make them Wall of Reality?
There are a limited amount of resources to develop a game. Working on what you've mentioned means other things don't get worked on. This should be fairly easy for you to understand.

I never stated that implementing your desires would cause people to unsub. I'm saying that your desires are not the same as the majority's desires, and thus resources will be devoted more frequently to the majority's desires, aka new PvE and PvP content. Some of the things you've mentioned are under development, but they are NOT a top priority for obvious reasons.
Darasuum kote ner vode!
Darasuum kote Mando'ade!

Nee-Elder's Avatar


Nee-Elder
08.31.2012 , 06:54 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandicus View Post
There are a limited amount of resources to develop a game. Working on what you've mentioned means other things don't get worked on. This should be fairly easy for you to understand.

I never stated that implementing your desires would cause people to unsub. I'm saying that your desires are not the same as the majority's desires, and thus resources will be devoted more frequently to the majority's desires, aka new PvE and PvP content. Some of the things you've mentioned are under development, but they are NOT a top priority for obvious reasons.
1) underlined: How do you know that? All due respect, but i'd prefer a 'yellow name' confirm before i take your word as "easy to understand".

2) bold: Who is this supposed "majority" and where are their confirmed "desires" listed? Obviously, everyone wants 'new PvE and PvP content' lol. But umm you would agree that it's impossible for even the deep-pockets of EA to provide BioWare's version of Content in a timely enough manner to satisfy the "majority", right? Therefore, imo, unless they start Updates literally once-a-month, wouldn't the implementation of certain Wall of Crazy sandbox'ish ideas do more to sustain players until the big expansion type updates came? (like Makeb, etc.)

3. italics: What are the "obvious reasons"? And i ask that seriously btw.

----------

And for those certain people PM'ing me: I am not "bashing the game" lol. I am an early Beta-tester and Day 1 paying customer, and all i want is for TOR to be what it should be (and was promised to be) : GREAT.

That's all. As of now, the game is good. I believe we (and the Star Wars brand) deserves better.
I love(d) Pre-CU, CU, JTL, SWG, EMU, and TOR. Yeah that's right: *all* of them.
TEAMISB

Vandicus's Avatar


Vandicus
08.31.2012 , 07:09 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Nee-Elder View Post
1) underlined: How do you know that? All due respect, but i'd prefer a 'yellow name' confirm before i take your word as "easy to understand".

2) bold: Who is this supposed "majority" and where are their confirmed "desires" listed? Obviously, everyone wants 'new PvE and PvP content' lol. But umm you would agree that it's impossible for even the deep-pockets of EA to provide BioWare's version of Content in a timely enough manner to satisfy the "majority", right? Therefore, imo, unless they start Updates literally once-a-month, wouldn't the implementation of certain Wall of Crazy sandbox'ish ideas do more to sustain players until the big expansion type updates came? (like Makeb, etc.)

3. italics: What are the "obvious reasons"? And i ask that seriously btw.

----------

And for those certain people PM'ing me: I am not "bashing the game" lol. I am an early Beta-tester and Day 1 paying customer, and all i want is for TOR to be what it should be (and was promised to be) : GREAT.

That's all. As of now, the game is good. I believe we (and the Star Wars brand) deserves better.

1. This is a simple law of reality. There are limited resources for any given project. They have a limited amount of employees. If those employees are working on one project, they can't simultaneously be working on another project at the same instant in time. Just think about it, Bioware has only so many employees working on this game and they can only accomplish so much in an arbitrary timeframe, lets say one month. They cannot do everything at once in that month. Say they have to choose between producing a new operation and creating chat bubbles. If they create chat bubbles, they won't be able to work on the operation.

In actuality the Bioware workforce is currently divided into teams or "strike forces" (I can probably find the interview where I drew this from if you'd really care to have a source on this part) each focusing on different projects. I assume that the team working on new PvE and PvP content is larger than the team working on chat bubbles, because we are getting the former before and more frequently than the latter.

2. You are welcome to your opinion that catering to the majority is a poor strategy. Companies tend to disagree with that however. I actually disagree with a "cater to the majority strategy" in video game production as well, since I view them as akin to art products. I think that developers should produce games as they see fit, and this will end up in a better product that will sell well. This is of course my own opinion and not something that companies as a rule follow.

I cannot identify the "Majority" for you on any given situation. Companies take samples of populations and questions them to determine what changes should be made, and what products will be desirable. Bioware/EA has a better idea of the desires of the majority than I do, and so I assume they operate by normal company practice of catering to the majority of their target demopgrahic.

3. They ones that you mentioned that are under development, quality of life for example, are not top priority because the release of a whole ton of quality of life features is unlikely to bring in as many players as the release of a new operation. Compare the legacy perks to Denova. Do you think more people would be playing if legacy perks had been delivered without Denova rather than if Denova had been released without the legacy perks?
Darasuum kote ner vode!
Darasuum kote Mando'ade!

Jenemi's Avatar


Jenemi
08.31.2012 , 09:52 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Nee-Elder View Post
I love how nowadays people assume a person's "tone" (aka now i'm "being mean" apparently lol) through typed words over the Internet.

Anyways, i read your post and hear you...However:

Answer me this: Why then, if my point-of-view (as a still paying customer) is so off-base, did TOR lose so many players in not even a year of release? Why then is this so called 'WoW killer' already going Free-to-Play? Why then did hundreds of Beta-testers like me point out all the many inherent flaws in TOR over a year ago, specifically Endgame, and now here we are (as predicted) with the very same issues still unresolved?

Why then are people like You so resistant to just SOME small sense of 'sandbox' elements, which would be completely optional btw (just like, say, Operations are) , but would provide the more sophisticated player (of which there are many more than you and EA realize) something within this "great star War" to strive toward?

Why then, if TOR is so perfect as it is, are subscription numbers continually decreasing each month?

BioWare listened to all of 'you' from the beginning, didn't they? And look where that's gotten us.

I say it's time for BioWare to start listening more to a different crowd, one that craves much more than fleeting "content", on-the-rails hand-holding, and daily grindfests.

And remember: My subscription is worth the same as yours.
1. I never said you were mean.
2. Only fans gave it that name. It was never officially advertised like that. You can't blame the company for a nickname they didn't even come up with.
3. I never said anything about your Point of View being off-base--I just said not everyone agrees with it as you pointed out that this is "what everyone wants" when that is not true.
4. Never said anything about resistance to it. I'm always willing to try new things--I just said that it wasn't anything I needed in the game. (Though, for collectors, nothing is optional FYI)
5. Lots of games are moving towards Free to Play and many did even better due to it so...
6. Never said SWTOR was perfect--everything can always use improvement.
7. Never said your opinion was less.

All I said was that not everyone feels the same way as you so you should not talk as if every single person does. You are one person. Speak for your own ideals, but do not act like every other person here also feels that way. I was just proving there are people who are looking forward to this thing. And as mentioned with statistics, about half of users have done an Operation. Not to mention half of users have done space missions within the last 30 days. I hate space missions because I'm terrible at them, but you don't see me being all "oh my god, why are they doing Space Missions? faslkfmlasl;afs" because I know there's people who do like them.

But yes, Vandicus said it better than I have what I meant.

Vandicus - Thank you for understanding my post.
Vanity Pets Guide - I will ALWAYS respond to my PMs as long as I notice.
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OmicronZero's Avatar


OmicronZero
08.31.2012 , 10:08 PM | #26
This game has been in-development as a "theme park" styled MMO since long before beta. It was never going to be sandbox. It was never touted as being Star Wars Galaxies 2. It was not made to kill WoW or replace SWG. It is it's own entity. Stop trying to make TOR into SWG2. That game died, let it go. Sandbox games seem to be undesirable to companies as of late, I'd guess that means that they're not all that profitable (just guessing). That said, I love sandbox style, Ultima Online was my favorite MMO back in the day, and I never liked EverQuest. I'd love it if they had some sandbox elements, or if someone did make a SWG2. But that isn't this game. I never expected that to be this game. Why? Bioware. They make linear RPGs. Why would their MMO be a sandbox? That's silly. Now a company like Bethesda (TES series), they could make a wonderful sandbox MMO (unfortunately I doubt that's the direction of TES Online).

Basically anyone who thought that Bioware's entry into the MMO space was going to be a sandbox game either never heard of the company or was seriously deluding themselves. :/ And really, the two styles don't seem to mix well, so asking for a mass amount of sandbox elements is really no different than asking them to re-make the game from scratch. As to the dwindling numbers, well, for one that always happens to theme-park MMOs between new content patches. It's also beyond ridiculous to assume that just because you want sandbox elements, the lack thereof is the sole reason for others leaving. I'd imagine the release of new games, the launch of a new high-profile MMO, the upcoming expansion to the largest MMO around, and various other things might, possibly, be contributing factors.

Oh, and as far as sandbox elements go, pet-breeding is so awfully tedious and unnecessary. Sandbox crafting? Awesome. Sandbox skill-building? Amazing. Sandbox community building? Fantastic. Sandbox animal husbandry? ... No thanks, pal.
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Nee-Elder's Avatar


Nee-Elder
08.31.2012 , 11:50 PM | #27
Oh the joys of Online 'communication'...

Okay so, let's see if i can get even more clear:

1. I do not want TOR to be SWG-2. I want TOR to be more (and therefore better) than what it currently is (post-50) .

2. I am not the only player who wants more sandbox elements. There are thousands of 'us'. I'm just one of the more vocal (today) because a: I still care and b: I haven't lost hope.

3. Sandbox elements, IMHO, are merely one of the many things that could be added to TOR to enhance the overall 'experience' (thereby making EA more money) .

4. The notion that 'theme park' gameplay and 'sandbox' elements cannot co-exist in the same MMORPG is not only narrow-minded (and borderline ridiculous) but also utterly disproven in this very game lol (albeit briefly, re: 2 Live Events and 2 mysterious-sequence rare LS-crystal & pet-bird) and in next years 'Elder Scrolls Online'.

5. If BioWare were smart, once the game goes Free-to-Play, they would make players like me (who crave more than the hand-holding status-quo) have to *pay* for Sandbox Content. Then we'll just see how much of a "minority" we are...and just how much 'profit' is to be made.
I love(d) Pre-CU, CU, JTL, SWG, EMU, and TOR. Yeah that's right: *all* of them.
TEAMISB

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
09.01.2012 , 07:59 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Nee-Elder View Post
Oh the joys of Online 'communication'...

Okay so, let's see if i can get even more clear:

1. I do not want TOR to be SWG-2. I want TOR to be more (and therefore better) than what it currently is (post-50) .

2. I am not the only player who wants more sandbox elements. There are thousands of 'us'. I'm just one of the more vocal (today) because a: I still care and b: I haven't lost hope.

3. Sandbox elements, IMHO, are merely one of the many things that could be added to TOR to enhance the overall 'experience' (thereby making EA more money) .

4. The notion that 'theme park' gameplay and 'sandbox' elements cannot co-exist in the same MMORPG is not only narrow-minded (and borderline ridiculous) but also utterly disproven in this very game lol (albeit briefly, re: 2 Live Events and 2 mysterious-sequence rare LS-crystal & pet-bird) and in next years 'Elder Scrolls Online'.

5. If BioWare were smart, once the game goes Free-to-Play, they would make players like me (who crave more than the hand-holding status-quo) have to *pay* for Sandbox Content. Then we'll just see how much of a "minority" we are...and just how much 'profit' is to be made.
The future of MMO lies in themed sandboxes.

Full sandbox have a too long learning curve, gets boring for most casual players and too often left them clueless of what to do.
Theme parks are easy to step in but gets dull in the long term as devs don't have the budget to deliver content as fast as player burn through it.

A mix of both is a the solution. Thing is the difficult part is to make the right mix.

Now few months ago BioWare posted a position for a designer specialized in social/sandbox elements.
The thing they had wrong at the time was asking for someone skilled in data crunching vs really being skilled at creating incentives for socialization and immersion feeling.
However from the last interviews, is seems the sandbox part in TOR isn't really in the short term wins of the new guys in charge. Which, if right, is a bad move.