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Five Point Plan to Improve Operations


alifaraaz's Avatar


alifaraaz
08.29.2012 , 07:02 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by KingofGob View Post
In my opinion the silent majority of casual raiders are less interested in doing operations for gear progression, they want to see the bosses, see the scenery, get a feel for the story. I am basing this just on what I hear from people around me so I clearly could be wrong, but I think casual raiders like the challenge of learning and seeing something new more than the gear grind. Maybe the story modes could drop gear that is cosmetically similar to the tier from which the operation came so there is something different to get in each one, but I would say it still should be columi level.
I get what you're saying, and if it were me if I didn't want the challenge of hard modes and just wanted to experience it all, I'd be happy with same loot maybe different looks etc. But I would be happier with my own gear progressing as I go through the raids.
However I also understand that by keeping it the way it is, endgamers have little incentive to visit the older ops apart from with alts. However New players will always have the fun of going through them in order instead of having 6 ops rewarding the same stat gear.

But! A perfect example of where I believe you're wrong regarding the gear is WoWs LFR system. I don't know if you've played it, but in a sense its similar to story mode. It is a system where the raids are made very easy, easier than story mode raids. And the purpose of it was to let all players experience the content.

Now you can go in wow forums and see the everlasting arguments about it. Many believe LFR should drop no loot, or low quality loot. Others (the masses of casuals) say no, they're happy with getting some of the best gear in the game while doing easymode raids.

And blizzard will never change it because in the end that's what's getting people into the raids week in week out.

Bioware are taking the more old fashioned approach where even on story mode some skill is required. However like I said, EC story should be nerfed a bit, AFTER Terror from Beyond comes out.To make it more accessible to the masses. The reason I don't believe they should be dumbed down too much prior to the next set of progression is because it ruins it for the others.
And by the others I don't mean the hardcore, I mean just normal competent players who are getting into raiding. They work hard to clear storymode and they then either keep raiding storymode on the next Op or they try hardmode. If you make storymode too easy (before the next Op is released at least) then the gap between story and hard will be too big. It will be too much of a challenge for the casual raiders or new raiders because of the massive increase in difficulty.

Anyway I'm getting bit off-topic, but Blizzard have been through all that. Players often say they will love to do it for the experience etc, even if it dropped crap loot. But the experience only lasts so long. They need the carrot on the stick (Gear) to keep them coming in week in week out. Honestly and this applies to a lot of stuff in general, sometimes players don't always know what they want. They think they do, but when it actually happens, they realise it doesn't always work out as great as they thought it would be in their heads.
Kazar - Powertech, [Tomb of Freedom Nadd EU]

KingofGob's Avatar


KingofGob
08.29.2012 , 07:28 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by alifaraaz View Post
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Now you can go in wow forums and see the everlasting arguments about it. Many believe LFR should drop no loot, or low quality loot. Others (the masses of casuals) say no, they're happy with getting some of the best gear in the game while doing easymode raids.

And blizzard will never change it because in the end that's what's getting people into the raids week in week out.
This is the main reason why I said silent majority. I think the "casuals" you are referring to, blowing up WoW forums, are actually in the minority and benefit by being really loud. I think this scares a lot of devs into thinking that more people feel this way than actually do. I think most people play the game to play the game and loot is just a nice bonus; a means to an end. I think a great example of this is Blizzard's DIablo III. At launch the game was the best selling ever and everyone was excited to get their loot and get their dungeon crawl on. But people soon realized once you played through the game once or twice you've basically done the whole game. You can spend hours and hours grinding up the best gear, but a ton of people just didn't care too. Active players in Diablo dropped off accordingly. If people had the urge to get shinnies as bad as the WoW forums make it seem I think Diablo would be way more active than it currently is.

I will be honest, I came up with these ideas while hoping that Bioware would not make the same mistakes that drove me out of WoW. The old republic is not wow and it never has to be. WoW had the luxury of being the first of its kind (and no forum trolls I am not saying wow was the first mmo). People have years and years of ties build in to WoW. Doing exactly what WoW does is not the answer. The answer is make this game its own thing and say the hell with what WoW did. Innovation is bred by learning from other's mistakes while not imitating their successes. Developing swtor with the same principles as WoW has not worked as well as people had hoped this far, why keep trying to copy them now.

alifaraaz's Avatar


alifaraaz
08.30.2012 , 03:39 AM | #13
Yeah I guess there's no way to truly know without carrying out a survey over a big sample of players. But even then I suspect most people lie. They say they will enjoy it, but the type of players these are, they will play the Ops 2-3 times and then they'll want the next one released already (again that's my opinion), so the only way to really find out would beto do it. And well, maybe they should try it, but they'd likely see it as too much of a gamble

And again, its just not fair on the in between raiders. You can't split people into hardcore and casual. There are many many players who're in between. Infact there and probably thousands who don't have time to be crazy hardcore but are very good players. These are the ones that do storymode, and push themselves to try Hardmode for fun and challenge. If the difficulty gap between them is too large, therrs no way to bridge the gap. You would be restricting those players cause if they then wanted to progress onto hardmode, they would have to go back to the start, EV/KP hm and work their way up again.
One thing I do agree on though is not to try and copy WoW inch for inch. There's much great things they've done, but much bad aswell. Half their success was based on the time/era they launched in.
BW are trying to make a more Burning Crusade style MMO while still catering to casuals. It's tricky, but for the record if anything as ridiculous as LFR came to swtor I'd consider leaving :P it may get a lot of people into raids, but I think its ruined much of WoWs raiding community.
Kazar - Powertech, [Tomb of Freedom Nadd EU]

KingofGob's Avatar


KingofGob
08.30.2012 , 01:15 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by alifaraaz View Post
You can't split people into hardcore and casual. There are many many players who're in between. In fact there and probably thousands who don't have time to be crazy hardcore but are very good players.
This is something I will 100% agree with you on. The more difficulty levels the better, but I think this can be achieved by not obsoleting content. EV/KP is a great introductory to hardmodes operations. EC is a step up in difficulty. When Terror from Beyond is released I would be okay if they increased some of the enrage timers a bit in EC just to make the gap between EV/KP and EC a little less drastic. I would hope TB is a little bit more complex than EC and the operation after TB is another step up. This step ladder is it's own difficulty setting in my eyes. People can see all the content they would like in story mode, but have to follow a difficulty progression in order to do "true" raiding content. If you are good enough to do EV/KP HM you can step up to EC HM then TB HM and so on. This is very similar to levels in a more traditional game. Each level builds on the last to be more challenging. Story mode lets you run through every level with little resistance so you can see all the neat stuff, but hard modes will test your abilities on each level before you can pass to the next.

Codek's Avatar


Codek
08.30.2012 , 01:33 PM | #15
Keep in mind that creating easier access to better gear is in itself a nerf to all raiding content in the game. With the increase to access of black hole comms that BW implemented recently, each piece obtained by a casual player exponentially made story mode EC that much easier to clear.

It doesn't always have to be about nerfing the boss fights themselves to allow easier access to SM raids. Just by making the characters themselves stronger, you make it easier to jump up the latter of progression (EV/KP becomes super easy, EC becomes easy, etc...)
~Codek

KingofGob's Avatar


KingofGob
08.30.2012 , 01:47 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Codek View Post
Keep in mind that creating easier access to better gear is in itself a nerf to all raiding content in the game. With the increase to access of black hole comms that BW implemented recently, each piece obtained by a casual player exponentially made story mode EC that much easier to clear.
I don't think the bh system in it of itself is extremely damaging either. I think it's good to have some level of progression is for someone who barely does anything. BH gear is higher item level, but is often times just straight worse than rakata or even columi in some cases. I think the real problem would be if a new higher level currency is created with Terror from Beyond and replaces bh coms for things like dailies, much like how valor points work in WoW when a new teir comes out.

I would actually be very interested in a dev response to that. What is the plan for commendations once Terror from Beyond is released? Will daily heroics drop the next tier of coms or is black hole the highest com that will be obtainable without raiding TB?

RyanTHX's Avatar


RyanTHX
08.30.2012 , 03:55 PM | #17
Ok, I have no idea what all the abbreviations stand for. I am not new to online multiplayer games but yes this is my first mmo. I can't seem to find anywhere that explains the terminology that everyone is using. I find it hard to post sometimes because I feel retarded. -lol-
Let me show you how it works clanker...

KingofGob's Avatar


KingofGob
08.30.2012 , 04:02 PM | #18
KP=Karaga's Palace
EV=Eternity Vault
EC=Explosive Conflict
BH=Black Hole

Any others you're not sure about?

RyanTHX's Avatar


RyanTHX
08.30.2012 , 04:03 PM | #19
What's HM?
Let me show you how it works clanker...

alifaraaz's Avatar


alifaraaz
08.30.2012 , 04:32 PM | #20
HM = Hard Mode
NiM or NM = Nightmare Mode
SM = Story Mode
Kazar - Powertech, [Tomb of Freedom Nadd EU]