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My tank can't tank...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
My tank can't tank...

RundoSim's Avatar


RundoSim
08.28.2012 , 11:18 PM | #1
or maybe I can't tank...

I've always run as a healer but decided to try the other end of the spectrum for once, and it's more challenging than I thought. I'm a recent 50 Vanguard tank in full orange gear and have done about 2 days worth of dailies. I had enough daily comms to buy all the item lvl 51 Commando armorings from the vendor and a friend was nice enough to give me item lvl 50-51 shield/absorb Enhancements, enough of both for every piece of gear). I have a few purple "Mods" but most of them are still lvl 48ish blues. They add about +4 absorb where the purples from dailies add +8 and abit more endurance. I have lvl49 purple redoubt>Veractiy impants, MK-1(Supercommando?) BH earpiece, and 2 recruit relics (+97 shield/defense) and have about 16k hp. My shield is a crafted lvl 49 purple (forgot which). My shield chance is roughly 48% and absorb is roughly 40%. I'm also running the cookie cutter PvE shield spec.

I ran HM FE the other night and did fine (full rakata dps and good heals) but tried to run HM Kaon (group finder) and died on the first droid mob. I have no problem holding aggro but my health drops to about 1/2 almost instantly and the healer couldn't keep me up. The healer was in columi/rakata gear. She checked my gear and saw the blue "Mod"s and left the group, taking the rest with her.

My question is what am I doing wrong? Should I not be in Kaon until I get some Columi gear? Do I need to pop my defense CD on 1 mob? The healer from my FE run said I take a ton of damage as well. A week of dailies will get me about +24 absorb through the purple "Mod"s but I can't see that as being between life and death. Any help is appreciated.

_gideon's Avatar


_gideon
08.29.2012 , 12:57 AM | #2
Kaon HM, including the bonus boss, can be cleared by a tank with 15k hp. Interrupts and stuns become important with health that low though. You've mentioned using CDs on trash, do it. They'll be ready in time for the bosses.

I healed a vanguard last night who'd just respecced and was still using a generator rather than a shield. HP dropped like a rock on every pull. I assume you've not made the same mistake?

It might be worth posting your stats but you can probably solo the Hc2 on Belsavis for mods and run the Hc2 on Ilum with a friend for enhancements.

Edit: I shouldn't post while tired. You have a shield.

Svii's Avatar


Svii
08.29.2012 , 04:14 AM | #3
Shield generator and tanking stance is a good idea hehe It's tough as a new tank, especially if you're thrown into the harder ones early on!

If you got the cash (a couple mill), you can trasfer mods with Legacy gear from your main for some Columi and maybe even BH level gear ^^

Check out this forum for theorycrafting: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/forum-10.html

Dulfy.net has a few guides on where to get gear, just look around the site.

CitizenFry's Avatar


CitizenFry
08.29.2012 , 10:36 AM | #4
Check the PVP vendor, Recruit gear will be better for tanking than most greens/blues.
Crafting on The Ebon Hawk. PST/mail: Blayze (rep) / K'ron (imp)
Armoring: Commando 26, Reflex 26; Barrel: Patron 26
Mod: Weighted 26+26B, Deflecting 26 Enhancement: Bulwark 26, Battle 26, Finesse 26
Ear: Black Hole Mender's MK-2 Relay

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
08.29.2012 , 11:56 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by RundoSim View Post
I ran HM FE the other night and did fine (full rakata dps and good heals) but tried to run HM Kaon (group finder) and died on the first droid mob. I have no problem holding aggro but my health drops to about 1/2 almost instantly and the healer couldn't keep me up. The healer was in columi/rakata gear. She checked my gear and saw the blue "Mod"s and left the group, taking the rest with her.
With that gear, your death on the first droid was not your own fault; it was the healer. That droid barely tickles, and the healer was obviously overgeared for the content in the first place. If you died, it had to have been because the healer was completely negligent and/or incompetent. The state of your gear is perfectly fine for running HM FPs, and is, in fact, about the gear level that the developers designed the content for in the first place. I would rather see someone in gear like yours rather than wearing full Recruit gear (which will give you lower pretty much everything because it itemizes for so much Expertise).

Beyond that, I will have to parrot the recommendation to not be afraid to burn your CDs on trash pulls: the CDs are short and some trash packs hit like trucks with or without CC. Even in full Campaign gear, I have to burn my CDs on some trash packs when the healer can't react fast enough (especially when there is a lot of Force/Tech damage being tossed about).

It's also important, *especially* with a less-than-optimally-geared tank, to not just have your group faceroll their way through everything. When the tank isn't massively overgeared, CCing on trash packs and proper kill order (healer>weak>standard>strong>elite>champ) are very important. An undergeared tank that has the sustained aggro of entire trash packs for extended periods because the DPS are having too much fun punching the elite that barely tickles is going to die, and it's not really the tank's or healer's fault (though some overgeared tanks and/or healers can do it regardless which simply encourages bad play). Some of the trash packs in HM FPs hit harder than the bosses themselves.

When you start up an HM FP, make sure the other people in the group know that you're a bit undergeared and ask them to use CC and proper kill priority. If the DPS wants to ignore the proper kill priority, don't be afraid to just let them tank the elite they're interested in until you take out the standards and strongs that are chewing you up. Negative punishment (not doing your job for those specific individuals until they start behaving properly) is a perfectly excusable behavior when dealing with bad players (I've used it with bad tanks and bad DPS with equal aplomb; it's kinda hard to do anything but offer advice or simply kick a bad healer though). Operant conditioning is a great way to get your point across.
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Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
08.29.2012 , 02:14 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by RundoSim View Post
I ran HM FE the other night and did fine (full rakata dps and good heals) but tried to run HM Kaon (group finder) and died on the first droid mob. I have no problem holding aggro but my health drops to about 1/2 almost instantly and the healer couldn't keep me up.
Are you sure it was Kaon Under Seige- and NOT Lost Island? Because the first droid boss in LI is a whole different animal, than the droid first droid boss than the one in Kaon.

If you're tanking specced, and not having threat problems, your on the right path.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
With that gear, your death on the first droid was not your own fault; it was the healer. That droid barely tickles, and the healer was obviously overgeared for the content in the first place. If you died, it had to have been because the healer was completely negligent and/or incompetent. The state of your gear is perfectly fine for running HM FPs, and is, in fact, about the gear level that the developers designed the content for in the first place. I would rather see someone in gear like yours rather than wearing full Recruit gear (which will give you lower pretty much everything because it itemizes for so much Expertise).
QFT ...

I'm geared in a mix of Black Hole & Columi, and I've healed fresh tanks wearing Recruit through most of the T1 HM content. It's not very fun to heal, but it is doable. Your gear is basically ideal for starting HM runs. In fact, until Black Hole came along- it was about the best anyone could reaasonably expect from someone who had never run a HM.

These things will give you problems in HM until you get overgeared, but none of them are your fault at all
1. DPS not using interrupts & threat dumps
2. DPS not following a smart kill order
3. Bad healers that have never learned to heal any content with an on level group.

These things will give you fits in HM until you get overgeared, BUT they ARE under your control
1. Not using your defenssive CD ~ with poorly geared dps in the gorup, you could use it twice per boss fight
2. Not knowing the mechanics of the HM bosses, if you don't know, ask the group - if you don't ask, it's your fault.
3. Not using your interrupts - most HM bosses have an ability or two that must be interrupted
4. Not popping a click on use tanking relic if you're alredy hurt when you see that a boss burst phase is starting
5. Not stepping out of the AoE from certain boss attacks ~ You can't just face tank through everything
6. Not turning the boss to face away from the group

I have noticed that some fresh tanks are indeed, much squishier than others. After talking with the squishy tanks, in most cases it was caused by using a poor tanking spec. Sometimes it's DPS gear. I've run multiple HM's with a few fresh tanks to help them figure out what their problem is. With Guardian tanks, it's usually a lack of defense stat. But I'm not completely sure what effect the defense stat has on Vanguard tanking. Vanguards always seem squishier than the other tanks. But, honestly, I havn't dealt with enough super squishy vanguards to figure it out yet.

Might try adding some redoubt augments & see if added defense doesn't fix the problem. Convince an over geared healer to do 2 back to back runs of the same HM, with/without the augments. And come back and give us a report.

Better yet, If you're on the Progenitor- hit me up, I'll just give you the augments & heal you myself.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
08.29.2012 , 04:25 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
But I'm not completely sure what effect the defense stat has on Vanguard tanking.
Vanguards want Shield and Absorb. You only want to start stacking Defense when you get to full Rak/Campaign and you start getting hit harder by diminishing returns on those stats. Even then you don't want *that* much Defense because you have a talent that relies on successfully Shielding (and a high Defense would preclude you from getting that ammo return since the Defense roll occurs before the Shield roll).

Also, when getting your Columi/Rak gear, make sure to switch out the terrible, terrible Enhancements (specifically, those with lots of Accuracy) for pure tank Enhancements (the ones you have now are going to be perfectly workable replacements for Rak/Columi acc enhancements). On my tanks, before I got into full Rak gear, I had level 56 armoring and mod and only level 50 enhancements because the given enhancements were so painfully itemized (I'm not even sure why the developers haven't simply tweaked the enhancements in them since they're not even top tier anymore).
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vojinsa's Avatar


vojinsa
08.31.2012 , 04:42 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post

These things will give you problems in HM until you get overgeared, but none of them are your fault at all
1. DPS not using interrupts & threat dumps
2. DPS not following a smart kill order
3. Bad healers that have never learned to heal any content with an on level group.

These things will give you fits in HM until you get overgeared, BUT they ARE under your control
1. Not using your defenssive CD ~ with poorly geared dps in the gorup, you could use it twice per boss fight
2. Not knowing the mechanics of the HM bosses, if you don't know, ask the group - if you don't ask, it's your fault.
3. Not using your interrupts - most HM bosses have an ability or two that must be interrupted
4. Not popping a click on use tanking relic if you're alredy hurt when you see that a boss burst phase is starting
5. Not stepping out of the AoE from certain boss attacks ~ You can't just face tank through everything
6. Not turning the boss to face away from the group.

this one is wise.

for a vanguard try using http://www.torhead.com/ability/alu0sVd/neural-surge in your aoe rotation to help control large packs and give your healer a chance to get you back up just in case it hits the fan. kaon is a pita at any gear level from screamers or other gold mobs that drop threat and smash other members. most healers stand far away and you have a few options when this happens.

1. cryo grenade to hold it for a few.
2. harpoon once it jumps to the healer.
3. neural surge.

all of the above in most cases will help with trash packs in kaon that drop threat. also i have noticed the bloated mobs wont wiggle and will just xplode w/o warning.
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