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An in-depth look at: Revan


Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
08.25.2012 , 09:39 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Newyankalt View Post
I have read the revan novel awhile back and I think it said both revan and vitiate we're messing with eachothers mind. Revan with the force kept making the emperor rethink his decision to invade the republic. This was when revan was in stasis so revan in a way delayed the invasion for awhile it seems.
Revan's will was bolstered by Meetra Surik's spirit. Had she not aided him, Revan would have never been able to fight the Emperor.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Newyankalt's Avatar


Newyankalt
08.25.2012 , 09:41 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Revan's will was bolstered by Meetra Surik's spirit. Had she not aided him, Revan would have never been able to fight the Emperor.
But in a way his trip was at least not for nothing and he did what he really wanted anyway to make sure Bastila and his son could have a life of peace.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
08.25.2012 , 09:45 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Rikalonius View Post
Maybe if the Council had put the full weight of the order into battle against the Mandalorians then Revan would never have had to lead a third of them away. There would never be a schism in the Jedi Order and Reven wouldn't have needed to flee from the Council who was bent on taking out their frustration on the returning Jedi, when it was the council who had been derelict in their duty to protect the Republic.

Vrook never acknowledged or apologized for his role in the whole mess. His hubris to the end was most un-Jedi-like. Revan made mistakes, he was corrupted by the technology of the Infinite Empire, but that could have all been avoided if the Council had not be so insistent on inaction.
The Council was trying to counter the Mandalorian agression with their peaceful stance. Remember, the Mandalorians wanted to fight Jedi. If the Jedi had stayed out of the war, it is likely the Mandalorians would have backed off. But Revan gave them what they wanted. He took the Jedi into war, a war that brought many of them to the Dark Side. Revan countered the Mandalorian agression with his own, starting his journey down the path of the Dark Side. The Council knew that this would happen. Going to war against the Mandalorians would have caused catastrophic damage to the Jedi Order.

The Jedi Order was wrong in punishing those who went to war, yes I agree. But I see their reason behind it. Many of the Jedi had been corrupted during the war. The Council couldn't risk a Jedi who fought in the war going Dark andkilling several of their Order. They had to clean house in order to make sure the Order was not tainted by the Dark Side.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
08.25.2012 , 09:47 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Newyankalt View Post
But in a way his trip was at least not for nothing and he did what he really wanted anyway to make sure Bastila and his son could have a life of peace.
Actually, Revan did not delay the Empire. The Sith Emperor sent Revan and Malak to find the Star Forge. He intended to have the Star Forge complete his armada and speed his invasion up by 300 years. Destroying the Star Forge only put the Emperor back on schedule.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Newyankalt's Avatar


Newyankalt
08.25.2012 , 09:51 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Actually, Revan did not delay the Empire. The Sith Emperor sent Revan and Malak to find the Star Forge. He intended to have the Star Forge complete his armada and speed his invasion up by 300 years. Destroying the Star Forge only put the Emperor back on schedule.
If revan and malak would have defeated the republic with the star forge than the empire wouldn't need there fleets the galaxy would allready be there's.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
08.25.2012 , 09:55 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Newyankalt View Post
If revan and malak would have defeated the republic with the star forge than the empire wouldn't need there fleets the galaxy would allready be there's.
It was meant to be a stealth operation. Revan and Malak went rogue and attacked the Republic on their own, using the fleet the Star Forge had built. The fleet Revan and Malak used was not even close to the size of fleet the Emperor wanted.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Rikalonius's Avatar


Rikalonius
08.25.2012 , 10:18 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The Council was trying to counter the Mandalorian agression with their peaceful stance. Remember, the Mandalorians wanted to fight Jedi. If the Jedi had stayed out of the war, it is likely the Mandalorians would have backed off. But Revan gave them what they wanted. He took the Jedi into war, a war that brought many of them to the Dark Side. Revan countered the Mandalorian agression with his own, starting his journey down the path of the Dark Side. The Council knew that this would happen. Going to war against the Mandalorians would have caused catastrophic damage to the Jedi Order.

The Jedi Order was wrong in punishing those who went to war, yes I agree. But I see their reason behind it. Many of the Jedi had been corrupted during the war. The Council couldn't risk a Jedi who fought in the war going Dark andkilling several of their Order. They had to clean house in order to make sure the Order was not tainted by the Dark Side.
That's of course purely speculation on your part, but I can hardly believe you could write it with a straight face. Canderous is clear in his commentary to the player that they would not be denied a fight. They razed world after world to provoke it. So by ignoring them the Jedi Council let those people die in order to pursue their pacifism. That makes them no better than Revan, who, as Canderous said, fortified worlds at the cost of others. Revan had to use unorthodox tactics because he was operating from an almost insurgent position. He had to break the will the of the Mandalorians to fight, which he did. He may not have had to do that, had the Council reacted to the first worlds attacked. Any maneuver by the Jedi would by any standard be considered a defensive action, since the Mandalorians attacked into the Republic.

The truth is the Council had grown fat and weak, just like they had under Yoda. They were unwilling to face the threat head on, and preferred to hide out in their temple, too concerned with their dogmas and their rituals; long forgetting their duty to protect the Republic.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
08.25.2012 , 10:40 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Rikalonius View Post
That's of course purely speculation on your part, but I can hardly believe you could write it with a straight face. Canderous is clear in his commentary to the player that they would not be denied a fight. They razed world after world to provoke it. So by ignoring them the Jedi Council let those people die in order to pursue their pacifism. That makes them no better than Revan, who, as Canderous said, fortified worlds at the cost of others. Revan had to use unorthodox tactics because he was operating from an almost insurgent position. He had to break the will the of the Mandalorians to fight, which he did. He may not have had to do that, had the Council reacted to the first worlds attacked. Any maneuver by the Jedi would by any standard be considered a defensive action, since the Mandalorians attacked into the Republic.

The truth is the Council had grown fat and weak, just like they had under Yoda. They were unwilling to face the threat head on, and preferred to hide out in their temple, too concerned with their dogmas and their rituals; long forgetting their duty to protect the Republic.
I never said they were right. I was merely specualting at the reasons for their pacifist approach.

And don't say the Jedi were weak under Yoda. The order was at its strongest under his leadership. But this thread isn't about Yoda. This is about Revan's actions and how he responded to situations.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Rikalonius's Avatar


Rikalonius
08.25.2012 , 10:58 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I never said they were right. I was merely specualting at the reasons for their pacifist approach.

And don't say the Jedi were weak under Yoda. The order was at its strongest under his leadership. But this thread isn't about Yoda. This is about Revan's actions and how he responded to situations.
No man is an island. You can't just willy nilly put the onus on Revan, without, as you say, considering all sides of the argument. I accept you are attempting to speculate the reasons for the Council's approach. What we do know is that the council let worlds burn in order to maintain a pacifist approach. This, to me, seems contrary to the Jedi Order's reason for being. The Jedi are not pacifists. They are monastic military order, and one of their primary tenants to is to react to aggressors. It is also to serve the Republic. So when the Senate asks you to do your job as leaders of men and take the Republic's military forces in to battle against a hyper-aggressive warrior culture enemy that is slaughtering billions of lives, I believe it is immoral to refuse.

The Republic, in their minds, had no choice but to fight the Mandalorians. So, without the Orders help, they suffered major defeats, as Canderous relays to you. Had Revan, and the rest of the Jedi, listened to the Order, the Republic forces would have eventually been obliterated. Then, not only would the Order then be vulnerable to direct attack by the Mandalorians, the Republic would have been open for attack by the Sith. It's a complete lose-lose situation all around. So, even with Revan and 1/3 of the order deciding to defy the Council, they were still an inferior force that had suffered major setbacks. That forced Revan to act more aggressively to win, which compromised him. Had the Council not neglected their duty, it is likely the unified order would have stood a much better chance, and Revan's corruption, along with others, would not have happened.

All I'm saying is, you cannot remove the Council's inaction from the equation. They are just as culpable in the resulting civil war as Revan was.

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
08.25.2012 , 11:43 PM | #30
The Jedi Council refused to fight in the Mandalorian Wars at first because they sensed their was a greater threat waiting and figured by joining in the conflict they might have somehow ended up making the situation worse.

And they were right as it turned out. Trufhfully I think they were overcautious and it backfired. However, regardless of his motives, Revan played right into the enemy hands by defying the council, joining the war and being recklessly corrputed to the darkside and then attacking the Republic. Whether because he wanted to conquer the Republic to prepare it for the Sith Empire or if he was simply mind controlled by the Sith Emperor to do it, the destruction caused by the Jedi Civil War was mostly his fault.