DPS operative is actually crap:)

I played all classes. Playing a lethality operative reminds me the play style of my vanguard. It is the same melee - ranged class, Even operative needs to be in melee more than vanguard it has less survivability. Let's compare lehality OP and Assault VG.

 

Survivability

Vanguard has heavy armor, but OP has only medium. Vanguard has damage reduction shield which is better than OP absorption shield. Vanguard has instant ammo free self heal, OP has no instant free self heals. Dps specced OP can use only long cast time heals which consumes a lot of energy and requires to self root.

Overall VG survivability is better than OP by all comparison points - passive mitigation, defensive cooldowns and self healing.

 

Damage and burst.

VG has an easy rotation and can do great short bust from 30 meters and good sustainable dps from 10 meters, getting to 4 meters is not essential. VG has two dots, first dot is easy to land from 30 meters and it deals initial damage and dot on 18 sec. Second dot is automatic and can be put with no CD from 10 meters, or from 30 beters if procced.. VG has spammable 10 meters and proccable 30 meters attacks.

 

OP has two dots, corrosive dart doesn't have initial damage and is weaker than incenedary round.

Corrosive granade has 12 sec CD and again is weaker than VG plasma cell dot. OP has no spammable 10 meters attacks and no proccable 30 meters attacks. The only filler between placing dots is weak autoattack. The main damaging ability of OP cull is broken, because it requires some kind of condition to execute, so to be able to execute cull you need to kill a player first or hit target with shiv from 4 meters.

 

Actually lethality operative does not have any descent PvP rotation, it should be at least short or long ranged attacks which you can use rather than using autoattack.

 

VG is a total winner of DPS and burst.

 

Control.

Op has 10 meter area mess and 4m stun. VG has 30 meters stun and 4m area stun

Again VG has better control.

 

 

Utility.

Op has only one utility is stealth. VG has taunts, grapple and guard.

 

In few words in all cathegories for comparison survivability, damage, burst, control and utility VG is a clear winner.

My question is what is the point to design class balance like that?

Edited August 15, 2012 by Roiz

Take with a grain of salt as my scrapper is only level 43 but I find it to be one of the most surviable classes.

 

Seriously, you can pick your fights and if it hits the fan you are gone. Extremly mobile.

 

They do need a slight up tweak in damage to their secondary skills. As they pretty much suck in protracted fights/PVE.

I believe you are wrong sir. I've seen a few DPS OP's over the last few weeks topping DPS in PvP on a regular basis. Also have a dps op is guild that is always top 3 in boss operation fights(vs. mara's pt's, snipers). The class seems to requires more work than most others. Its not really just rotation with them you need to be aware of everything going on.

Apple, meet orange.

 

Lethality is more of a PvE spec, but I've seen several who can shell out serious damage and top the charts in PvP. Lethality Operatives have stealth, in-combat escape, a mez, and can off-heal. That's a heck of a lot more utility than an Assault VG (who can't Guard btw, unless you're doing it wrong).

 

Class balance is overall, when pitted against other classes in terms of DPS/Defense/Healing/Utility. It does NOT mean that all classes are DPS zerg classes like Assault VG.

 

This may shock and amaze you, and even shake the PvP community to its very foundation, but maybe, just MAYBE, Operative isn't for you.

Edited August 15, 2012 by TheronFett

Hey I just saw this thread, and this is crazy, but apples and oranges, so call me maybe.

Granted I am sub 50 PvP on my operative, but as a lv 25 I put up enough dps to take 1st or 2nd in any wz I play and die less than most of my team. A lot of it comes down to who is on my team AC wise and if I get left holding an objective.

Otherwise it is using all my abilities wisely, easy.

DPS operative is actually crap:)

I played all classes. Playing a lethality operative reminds me the play style of my vanguard. It is the same melee - ranged class, Even operative needs to be in melee more than vanguard it has less survivability. Let's compare lehality OP and Assault VG.

 

Survivability

Vanguard has heavy armor, but OP has only medium. Vanguard has damage reduction shield which is better than OP absorption shield. Vanguard has instant ammo free self heal, OP has no instant free self heals. Dps specced OP can use only long cast time heals which consumes a lot of energy and requires to self root.

Overall VG survivability is better than OP by all comparison points - passive mitigation, defensive cooldowns and self healing.

 

Damage and burst.

VG has an easy rotation and can do great short bust from 30 meters and good sustainable dps from 10 meters, getting to 4 meters is not essential. VG has two dots, first dot is easy to land from 30 meters and it deals initial damage and dot on 18 sec. Second dot is automatic and can be put with no CD from 10 meters, or from 30 beters if procced.. VG has spammable 10 meters and proccable 30 meters attacks.

 

OP has two dots, corrosive dart doesn't have initial damage and is weaker than incenedary round.

Corrosive granade has 12 sec CD and again is weaker than VG plasma cell dot. OP has no spammable 10 meters attacks and no proccable 30 meters attacks. The only filler between placing dots is weak autoattack. The main damaging ability of OP cull is broken, because it requires some kind of condition to execute, so to be able to execute cull you need to kill a player first or hit target with shiv from 4 meters.

 

Actually lethality operative does not have any descent PvP rotation, it should be at least short or long ranged attacks which you can use rather than using autoattack.

 

VG is a total winner of DPS and burst.

 

Control.

Op has 10 meter area mess and 4m stun. VG has 30 meters stun and 4m area stun

Again VG has better control.

 

 

Utility.

Op has only one utility is stealth. VG has taunts, grapple and guard.

 

In few words in all cathegories for comparison survivability, damage, burst, control and utility VG is a clear winner.

My question is what is the point to design class balance like that?

 

Wow you are bad, want to be a PT or vangard? ROLL ONE! about control - are you nuts? Ops have WAAAAY Better control than pts or maras, a 2.5 area stun is terrible compared to a rofflflash area 8 sec shut down. Its not even intelligent QQ, you are just crying to cry.

What kind of QQ thread is this?

 

Not asking for a nerf?

 

Not threatening for unsub?

 

Not mentioning other game?

 

Please change the name or the thread or move it. We have strict rules in PvP section!

What kind of QQ thread is this?

 

Not asking for a nerf?

 

Not threatening for unsub?

 

Not mentioning other game?

 

Please change the name or the thread or move it. We have strict rules in PvP section!

lol nice.

 

my scrapper is only 43, but the only time I feel threatened by a dps op on any of my troopers is when there's more than one or they gank me when i'm not at full health. only a select few can take me from 100% to dead and even then it's usually something I failed to do. only a commando dps is less threatening on its own.

 

:2cents:

Edited August 15, 2012 by foxmob

Take with a grain of salt as my scrapper is only level 43 but I find it to be one of the most surviable classes.

 

Seriously, you can pick your fights and if it hits the fan you are gone. Extremly mobile.

 

They do need a slight up tweak in damage to their secondary skills. As they pretty much suck in protracted fights/PVE.

 

Sub-50 is completely different.

 

Too many Sub-50 opinions in here.

Sub-50 is completely different.

 

Too many Sub-50 opinions in here.

 

Perhaps. But I've seen plenty of 50 scrappers to get a good feel for them. The class is one of the more challenging classes to play but can still be very effective.

I think i just lost braincells by reading the OP comparing a stealth assasin / combat impairment class to a tankDPS.

 

In that case i would like to ask for my sage to wear heavy armor and get flameburst and saberward.

Apple, meet orange.

 

Lethality is more of a PvE spec, but I've seen several who can shell out serious damage and top the charts in PvP. Lethality Operatives have stealth, in-combat escape, a mez, and can off-heal. That's a heck of a lot more utility than an Assault VG (who can't Guard btw, unless you're doing it wrong).

 

Class balance is overall, when pitted against other classes in terms of DPS/Defense/Healing/Utility. It does NOT mean that all classes are DPS zerg classes like Assault VG.

 

This may shock and amaze you, and even shake the PvP community to its very foundation, but maybe, just MAYBE, Operative isn't for you.

 

^^ This right here folks. Deal with it.

Wow you are bad, want to be a PT or vangard? ROLL ONE! about control - are you nuts? Ops have WAAAAY Better control than pts or maras, a 2.5 area stun is terrible compared to a rofflflash area 8 sec shut down. Its not even intelligent QQ, you are just crying to cry.

 

Area STUN on shorter CD > area MEZZ on longer cooldown

Lethality/Dirty Fighting DPS is a false positive. Yes, you'll do a lot of damage but all of it is pathetic and slow damage. If you were to take away the AoE aspect of Corrisve Grenade, your damage would be much much less.

 

As to the PT/Vanguard comparison, it is valid. But the reason you won't have the same survivability, EVER, is because you've got stealth and that is considered the end all be all of balancing cool down nightmares in any game ever. On top of that, your shared AC is the Healer and you can't give them more survivability when they're already a nuisance to kill. Plus, you've got Snipers on the other side of the equation and the last thing this game needs is a ranged class with the same DPS capabilities of a Marauder/Sent and the same survivability options. So, enjoy your frail nature and the knowledge that it will never be altrered because everyone else is screwing you from it.

DPS operative is actually crap:)

I played all classes. Playing a lethality operative reminds me the play style of my vanguard. It is the same melee - ranged class, Even operative needs to be in melee more than vanguard it has less survivability. Let's compare lehality OP and Assault VG.

 

Survivability

Vanguard has heavy armor, but OP has only medium. Vanguard has damage reduction shield which is better than OP absorption shield.(Operatives defensive cooldowns support the hit and run playstyle, having straight damage redux doesnt really fall in line with our playstyle Vanguard has instant ammo free self heal, OP has no instant free self heals. Dps specced OP can use only long cast time heals which consumes a lot of energy and requires to self root.

Overall VG survivability is better than OP by all comparison points - passive mitigation, defensive cooldowns and self healing.

 

Damage and burst.

VG has an easy rotation and can do great short bust from 30 meters and good sustainable dps from 10 meters, getting to 4 meters is not essential. VG has two dots, first dot is easy to land from 30 meters and it deals initial damage and dot on 18 sec. Second dot is automatic and can be put with no CD from 10 meters, or from 30 beters if procced.. VG has spammable 10 meters and proccable 30 meters attacks. Im going to make the argument that vital shot with the double damage proc(second tier in DF), plus flechette round hits better than a PTs dots...not as spammable, but better

 

OP has two dots, corrosive dart doesn't have initial damage and is weaker than incenedary round.

Corrosive granade has 12 sec CD and again is weaker than VG plasma cell dot. OP has no spammable 10 meters attacksScoundrels have quickshot, 10m ability, costly, but its still there and no proccable 30 meters attacks. The only filler between placing dots is weak autoattack.Aside from gunslingers maybe, we are the only class that has a 0 cost spammable ranged attack, it can hit in the range of 1.2k per cast, and thats better than the dots we were talking about earlier....and it doesnt cost anything, my only problem is how bad my finger hurts from using it all the damn time, because it requires some kind of condition to execute, so to be able to execute cull you need to kill a player first or hit target with shiv from 4 meters.

 

Actually lethality operative does not have any descent PvP rotation, it should be at least short or long ranged attacks which you can use rather than using autoattack.

 

 

VG is a total winner of DPS and burst.

 

Control.

Op has 10 meter area mess and 4m stun. VG has 30 meters stun and 4m area stun

Again VG has better control.

You forgot out of combat spammable single target mez, and the 1.5 sec knockdown/stun

 

Utility.

Op has only one utility is stealth. VG has taunts, grapple and guard.

 

In few words in all cathegories for comparison survivability, damage, burst, control and utility VG is a clear winner.

My question is what is the point to design class balance like that?

 

 

I agree that OPS/Scoundrels need some looking at, I only submmited the comments in red because this forum is all about finding some mispelled word and saying you obviously need to L2P. I just thought id correct them.

 

I for one believe that ops lack the ability to perform well in most warzones, because of two reasons....the lack of players who are using class types that we perform well against(however I hear that snipers are making a comeback so good news for my scoundrel!!). I would either like to see our ability to hit harder against high armor targets increased, or maybe an ability that helps us mitigate an opponents healing. and he second reason isAs it stands now, the game design overall doesnt support our playstyle. so unless they change the level designs to be more spread out, or somehow make it harder to transition(like the first door in voidstar) we will continue to see our classes usefulness as DPS diminished because a team using vent can transition from one point to another before we can kill most classes, and in hutball.....well lets just say it blows...stealth stuns is about as good as it gets in hutball

Edited August 15, 2012 by Haystak

I agree that OPS/Scoundrels need some looking at, I only submmited the comments in red because this forum is all about finding some mispelled word and saying you obviously need to L2P. I just thought id correct them.

 

I for one believe that ops lack the ability to perform well in most warzones, because of two reasons....the lack of players who are using class types that we perform well against(however I hear that snipers are making a comeback so good news for my scoundrel!!). I would either like to see our ability to hit harder against high armor targets increased, or maybe an ability that helps us mitigate an opponents healing. and he second reason isAs it stands now, the game design overall doesnt support our playstyle. so unless they change the level designs to be more spread out, or somehow make it harder to transition(like the first door in voidstar) we will continue to see our classes usefulness as DPS diminished because a team using vent can transition from one point to another before we can kill most classes, and in hutball.....well lets just say it blows...stealth stuns is about as good as it gets in hutball

 

For some of the edits you made, you're partially wrong or flat out wrong. You can argue that our defenses work in hit and runs, but so does every defensive cd in the game, however to get full use of our defensive cd's they are not used for hit and run. The only exception to this is when you tie Evasion with Cloaking Screen.

 

For your DoT edit to his post, one of the DoTs (that when spec'd also snares the target) for pyro is a proc and 100% proc when spec'd into for Flame Burst, so it has the potential to cost them 0 heat, as for which does more dmg? Shrug, I don't care enough to figure that out. Where as ours are a bit energy intensive as they both cost 20 energy (Corrosive Dart and Corrosive Grenade). And facepalm.jpg at you for bringing up Flechette Round in a discussion about Lethality (a.k.a Dirty Fighting) - Edit on a site note, spamming Rapid Shots allows Pyros combustible gas cylinder to bypass some defenses, unlike Rupture from Marauders, crazy huh?

 

- Edit 2, I suppose I should really have made a point here with you bringing up Corrosive Microbes and compared the two specs but I wanted to avoid that, but here's the difference between our 12.5%/25% proc and their dots, this is what dot''s do for pyros if spec'd for it: vent 8 heat on rail shot, rail shot refreshes their cylinder dot, cylinder dot snares, increases dmg done by Rapid Shots; Rocket Punch; Rail Shot; Unload; and Flame Sweep, and they get their own version of Devouring Microbes that comes with tech crit chance.

 

As for Quick Shot / Overload Shot, uh I'll leave that discussion for another time. Because I had to facepalm.jpg at your last note under "Control" that it would just be a waste. Bringing up Jagged Strike / K.O. in a discussion about Lethality..... seriously?

Edited August 15, 2012 by GeistCC

Lethality/Dirty Fighting DPS is a false positive. Yes, you'll do a lot of damage but all of it is pathetic and slow damage. If you were to take away the AoE aspect of Corrisve Grenade, your damage would be much much less.

 

As to the PT/Vanguard comparison, it is valid. But the reason you won't have the same survivability, EVER, is because you've got stealth and that is considered the end all be all of balancing cool down nightmares in any game ever. On top of that, your shared AC is the Healer and you can't give them more survivability when they're already a nuisance to kill. Plus, you've got Snipers on the other side of the equation and the last thing this game needs is a ranged class with the same DPS capabilities of a Marauder/Sent and the same survivability options. So, enjoy your frail nature and the knowledge that it will never be altrered because everyone else is screwing you from it.

 

I can only agree with you. The best abilities operative has is frag grenade and explosive probe. But my sniper also has them and can spec into them. Eng sniper is night and day compared to operative.

 

I come to conclusion DPS operative is just a week version of sniper. I would trade stealth just for removing tactical advantages requirements on cull and stim.

For some of the edits you made, you're partially wrong or flat out wrong. You can argue that our defenses work in hit and runs, but so does every defensive cd in the game, however to get full use of our defensive cd's they are not used for hit and run. The only exception to this is when you tie Evasion with Cloaking Screen.

 

For your DoT edit to his post, one of the DoTs (that when spec'd also snares the target) for pyro is a proc and 100% proc when spec'd into for Flame Burst, so it has the potential to cost them 0 heat, as for which does more dmg? Shrug, I don't care enough to figure that out. Where as ours are a bit energy intensive as they both cost 20 energy (Corrosive Dart and Corrosive Grenade). And facepalm.jpg at you for bringing up Flechette Round in a discussion about Lethality (a.k.a Dirty Fighting) - Edit on a site note, spamming Rapid Shots allows Pyros combustible gas cylinder to bypass some defenses, unlike Rupture from Marauders, crazy huh?

 

As for Quick Shot / Overload Shot, uh I'll leave that discussion for another time. Because I had to facepalm.jpg at your last note under "Control" that it would just be a waste. Bringing up Jagged Strike / K.O. in a discussion about Lethality..... seriously?

 

Sorry my bad I focused on what your topic was, and what the entire first line in your discussion was just so happened to be

 

DPS operative is actually crap:)

 

im sure you understand.org.jpeg.com.

Sorry my bad I focused on what your topic was, and what the entire first line in your discussion was just so happened to be

 

 

 

im sure you understand.org.jpeg.com.

 

My topic? And you even quote someone who isn't me, not sure if this is just horrible misuse of words or mistaken identity. Also, it was a proven through parsing that Op dps was the 2nd lowest in the game, so it's not like that statement is entirely off.

 

Edit - To top it off actually

I only submmited the comments in red because this forum is all about finding some mispelled word and saying you obviously need to L2P. I just thought id correct them.

Edited August 15, 2012 by GeistCC

My topic? And you even quote someone who isn't me, not sure if this is just horrible misuse of words or mistaken identity. Also, it was a proven through parsing that Op dps was the 2nd lowest in the game, so it's not like that statement is entirely off.

 

Edit - To top it off actually

 

In your reply you stated that it was a lethality argument. I wasnt even contributing to whatever lethathility argument that was going on. I was responding the original posters topic, and subsequent argument, when you replied with your call I thought you were the original poster, as you defended it as you knew exactly what his intent was.

 

If people are going to make arguments about an advanced class and line up untrue comments, most people, including devs will just scluff it off as unsubstantiated claims. Am i completely correct. Hell no, but its not hard to shoot holes in the original posters argument. Does that mean I disagree with the idea that operatives need some love, especially lethality, hell no. They most definately need some love. Lethality is about as useless as it gets. and concealment is not far behind.

 

If someone makes the comment "WE HAVE NO SPAMMABLE 10M ABILITIES" someone who even remotely knows the class will say...."you are wrong you have Quickshot" they wont look at the ****** power requirements, or the fact it does horrible damage for what you need, they will just say...your wrong, and move on.

 

But we dont have a pure damage redux like the other classes.

Im sure most people will ask "why do you need one?" . you have defensive abilities that allow you to open from stealth, burst, survive long enough to do some damage, and then vanish. You are not meant to tank.

 

I would like to see changes to the class. Was I attacking anyone. No. I just found some things I thought were untrue, and therefore counterproductive to any argument he had.

 

I support the OP in his quest for a better playing experience with scoundrels/operatives. I just want the argument to be better, and not look like random QQ.

Leave the Smugglers/Operatives alone...

Dps operatives are fine. It's just that marauders and PTs are completely over the top, especially PTs. No Idea why there is still no nerfs to them. I mean, are there some people who still defend those classes and really think they are fine? Edited August 15, 2012 by Fyda

Why is it that everyone who wants changes to a class has played them all to max level/gear?

People asking for ops dps buffs should put sone effort and l2p. The class is fine.