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What is horizontal leveling?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > New Player Help
What is horizontal leveling?

Katsuragisama's Avatar


Katsuragisama
08.13.2012 , 01:54 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
Well google led me to an article about it. It stinks! Basically it's the same old hammer-the-rpg-into-a-shooter arguement.
Gear makes no difference because every noob can get the same gear. So it comes down to player ability, and computer ability. Young kids with $5000 computers up against casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage.
Never mind some of us adults have arthritis.
If SWTOR goes for horizontal scaling it will drive older casual players (you know, the ones with paid subscriptions) from the game.
I'm not for or against either model, however the horizontal progression is more appealing to me because it comes down to skill, not who can spend the most time infront of the computer grinding gear for hours and hours. But now I understand why the vertical progression gear grind is widely accepted.

I love my share of older RPGs too. Even gear grind ones like FFXI. But everytime you finally get that last piece of your gear set they release another tier. Now you have to start grinding for that piece to stay competitive. I'm getting tired of that model though. It should be who is more skilled not who has the time to sit on their *** all day.

From my point of view, the gear grind is actually a barrier for the "casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage" group. The group has a job and a life, and doesnt have time to spend hours upon hours grinding for gear. The gear grind actually benefits those people that dont have jobs and can play all day. So it comes down to who is more skilled and PvP/Skill vs Skill, not Gear vs Gear, in a horizontal progression MMO.

I find your logic, illogical, good sir. But you have your point of view, and I have mine. To each his own!

TL;DR: Vertical Progression (Gear Grind model) benefits those who dont have jobs because they have the time to grind the gear.

Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
LMAO how exactly is that an advantage?? If you want a SHOOTER then go buy a SHOOTER.
Horizontal scaling takes away the RPG elements[...]
You don't need +10 stat to each tier of gear to have a good RPG. It's about the story, not who does 20 more damage...
Quote: Originally Posted by John Riccitiello, Electronic Arts Inc. - CEO
When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time... We're not gouging, but we're charging.

JacksonMo's Avatar


JacksonMo
08.13.2012 , 09:53 PM | #12
I guess it depends on how you want to define "skill"
If you play this game for a while different types of players will begin to make themselves apparent.
Group one, the power gamers. College kids with excellent reflexes and top end computers. They were the first to beat every nightmare mode boss that came their way. And also the first to leave when a new game rolled out.
They can be spotted most easily when they are gone. There was an Imp guild on Jedi Covenant that dominated PVP, but just recently I heard they fell apart.
The next group, lets call "scrubs" ( term one of my guildies uses in place of newb). They lack the gear and gaming skills of the power gamer, but chatting with them quickly ID's them as a teen ager. I don't know why, but adults can always tell.
The last bunch, (yes I know this is not all inclusive) are casual gamers. They lack the twitchy reflexes of the power gamer, but they make up for that in other areas. If they find a game they enjoy, they will play it for YEARS.
It may have taken me months and months to get a full set of Rakata, but I got it.
My second toon is well on his way, and a third already has a partial set thanks to legacy gear at level 44.
Yea, it would have been nice to be among the members of my guild when they earned sever first hard mode kills. They earned it, but now some of them are playing other games, and swtor is just a memory.
The ones that remain, I admit, are amazing to watch.
I'll be here till they shut the lights out, or really screw the game up, and trust me, this game is nowhere near screwed up.
My point being, if you are among those highly talented power gamers, the level grind is no obstacle. Doing away with it only shortens the time needed to "beat" and throw the game in the used bin. And it also takes away the story from the casual gamer. It becomes nothing more than beat the clock after you've finished the first time, trying to beat your best time.

So I'm back to my original statement. If you want a shooter, buy a flipping shooter.

JacksonMo's Avatar


JacksonMo
08.14.2012 , 02:50 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Katsuragisama View Post
I'm not for or against either model, however the horizontal progression is more appealing to me because it comes down to skill, not who can spend the most time infront of the computer grinding gear for hours and hours. But now I understand why the vertical progression gear grind is widely accepted.

I love my share of older RPGs too. Even gear grind ones like FFXI. But everytime you finally get that last piece of your gear set they release another tier. Now you have to start grinding for that piece to stay competitive. I'm getting tired of that model though. It should be who is more skilled not who has the time to sit on their *** all day.

From my point of view, the gear grind is actually a barrier for the "casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage" group. The group has a job and a life, and doesnt have time to spend hours upon hours grinding for gear. The gear grind actually benefits those people that dont have jobs and can play all day. So it comes down to who is more skilled and PvP/Skill vs Skill, not Gear vs Gear, in a horizontal progression MMO.

I find your logic, illogical, good sir. But you have your point of view, and I have mine. To each his own!

TL;DR: Vertical Progression (Gear Grind model) benefits those who dont have jobs because they have the time to grind the gear.



You don't need +10 stat to each tier of gear to have a good RPG. It's about the story, not who does 20 more damage...
Actually that is false. Casual gamers will put in more effort over time and achieve more. I've seen it over and over.
In another game and a different guild, exclusively adult, my guild were the best geared in the game, because grownups know how to WORK towards a goal. And while they might only have an hour here and an hour there, over time, they will get what they're working towards.
The "skilled" gamers you are talking about give up and quit if they don't beat the game in a matter of hours.
They might be able to beat EC HM in un-augmented columni gear, and that is impressive.
That's fine. You "beat the game" in record time. Don't ruin it for the rest of us, we will get there in our own time.

I had this discussion with a former guild mate. (Surprise! He's one of the ones who quit the game!)
He couldn't grasp why we weren't face-rolling EC HM. He was remembering when the power-gamers pulled it off, and was frustrated that the new group was having so much trouble.
Frankly, the better stats make a big difference. I've noticed it. And it's the reason I've been pushing EV and KP HM runs. The power gamer can farm EC SM in full columni, but realistically, what are the odds of them staying together as a group?

The gear grind works because it favors the casual gamer who will pay a monthly subscription fee, but shy's away from paying $75 to $100 for a new game every few months. That's how most MMO's pay the bills.
See, that's where having a job is actually an advantage.

Rassuro's Avatar


Rassuro
08.14.2012 , 03:23 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
because grownups know how to WORK towards a goal.
Many grownups also do not have such extremely narrow minded views as those you have shown in this thread, because their life experiences have tought them differently.

The "go play a shooter if you don't want to grind" is in my opinion one of the most narrow mided statements which regurarly comes up on this forum.
It's like saying "no you can not have cheese on your pasta, go buy a cheeseburger if you want cheese".

You didn't stop to think that maybe the people who wishes this game was more focused on skill and less on grinding, say that because they like the gameplay?
Toor, 50 Operative healer | Odaen, 50 Assassin tank | Tiyr, 50 Vanguard tank | Zerofour, 50 Mercenary DPS | The Red Eclipse

JacksonMo's Avatar


JacksonMo
08.15.2012 , 06:47 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Rassuro View Post
Many grownups also do not have such extremely narrow minded views as those you have shown in this thread, because their life experiences have tought them differently.

The "go play a shooter if you don't want to grind" is in my opinion one of the most narrow mided statements which regurarly comes up on this forum.
It's like saying "no you can not have cheese on your pasta, go buy a cheeseburger if you want cheese".

You didn't stop to think that maybe the people who wishes this game was more focused on skill and less on grinding, say that because they like the gameplay?
You're not defining "skill" so I'm left to assume you mean those twitchy hyper-reactive reflexes that wear off over time after age 25. If instead you mean learning the mechanics of a given fight, and knowing which abilities at your disposal to get the job done, then we are simply misunderstanding each other.
The vast majority people who want to do away with grinding all together, seem to be talking about the former. And top end computers, you wouldn't believe how snobbish they are about their computer.
Your cheeseburger analogy doesn't even make sense.
A better analogy would be walking into Pizza Hut and demanding lobster. And getting mad when someone points out there is a Red Lobster right next door. "Why can't Pizza Hut serve lobster!?! Some people don't like pepperoni, so they should remove it! And don't tell me to go to Red Lobster!" That's pretty much what you're doing.
You are showing a good deal of narrow mindedness here as well. You think all adults are exactly alike.... except me. Really?

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
08.15.2012 , 09:44 AM | #16
Just to add my $0.02 into the mix, as an employed adult who plays semi-casually.

The gear progression is attractive to me because I like the sense of improvement of my characters, because I can conquer something that used to be hard, and because I like shiny things(tm).

When I first tried endgame content and raids I had a lot of troubles. Now granted, with exceptional skill and good teamwork, much of that content can be mastered without high level gear. BUT if you can augment your current level of skill with better gear, you can more easily recover from mistakes and flubs during difficult fights and succeed.

Also, if you're chafing at the time in takes to do progression, a guild is the way to go. One of our guildies leveled an alt and dinged 50. He bought Recruit gear, and we immediately took him through HM EV and HM KP. We gave all possible drops to him. 3 hours after hitting 50 his new tank was ready for SM EC.

Rassuro's Avatar


Rassuro
08.15.2012 , 03:40 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
You're not defining "skill" so I'm left to assume you mean those twitchy hyper-reactive reflexes that wear off over time after age 25.
I'm sorry but I don't see why you would think that what you are explaining is what people are asking for. To me it is pretty obvious that the people asking for there to not be vertical leveling in a TOR-like MMO would still want the gameplay to be similar to what it is now. Why would people bother saying that they wish that there was not a vertical leveling system if they didn't like the gameplay in the first place?

No one is asking for the entire genre of the game to be changed into something completely different.

Or perhaps you think that all games which do not have a vertical leveling system needs to be twitchy? Have you tried chess?

Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
Your cheeseburger analogy doesn't even make sense.
A better analogy would be walking into Pizza Hut and demanding lobster. And getting mad when someone points out there is a Red Lobster right next door. "Why can't Pizza Hut serve lobster!?! Some people don't like pepperoni, so they should remove it! And don't tell me to go to Red Lobster!" That's pretty much what you're doing.
My analogy was already meant to be over the top, to show you how rediculous what you are saying is, but you actually managed to take it next level and make it even more rediculous.
It seems like you keep thinking that people who do not want a vertical leveling system all want to play a completely different game, which of course couldn't be further from the truth. If people wanted to play a game that's completely different in every way, then they would just play a different game.

Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
You are showing a good deal of narrow mindedness here as well. You think all adults are exactly alike.... except me. Really?
Do not try to twist my words, I have never written anything whatsoever about "all adults", and the only reason why I even wrote that sentance in the first place was because I was hoping that it would have made you pause and think for a moment.
Toor, 50 Operative healer | Odaen, 50 Assassin tank | Tiyr, 50 Vanguard tank | Zerofour, 50 Mercenary DPS | The Red Eclipse

Taleek's Avatar


Taleek
08.15.2012 , 04:17 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
You're not defining "skill" so I'm left to assume you mean those twitchy hyper-reactive reflexes that wear off over time after age 25. If instead you mean learning the mechanics of a given fight, and knowing which abilities at your disposal to get the job done, then we are simply misunderstanding each other.
The vast majority people who want to do away with grinding all together, seem to be talking about the former. And top end computers, you wouldn't believe how snobbish they are about their computer.
Your cheeseburger analogy doesn't even make sense.
A better analogy would be walking into Pizza Hut and demanding lobster. And getting mad when someone points out there is a Red Lobster right next door. "Why can't Pizza Hut serve lobster!?! Some people don't like pepperoni, so they should remove it! And don't tell me to go to Red Lobster!" That's pretty much what you're doing.
You are showing a good deal of narrow mindedness here as well. You think all adults are exactly alike.... except me. Really?
You aren't actually reading what other people are saying, you're just skimming it and drawing your own conclusions based on the way you believe people are going to react. Nobody ever said anything about the game being a shooter, you ASSUMED that, because you saw the word "shooter", all they said was that the MODEL of the way leveling up works in a shooter might be applicable to an RPG. Further, nobody said anything about twitch based gameplay that all us young whippersnappers or whatever excel at, but you assumed that they did, because that's what you wanted to hear and were "prepared" to argue against. I'm a college student, 19 years old, and have an excellent computer. Despite this, aside from occasionally poking fun at my friend for having a crappy computer, I am not "snobbish" about it.

You seem to be assuming that all adults think the way you do, which could not be more wrong. The people who rush through everything and complain do not all belong to one single group besides that. I've been playing this game since last August, and in that time I have gotten a grand total of three level 50s, with a few that are close. Do I spend more time on the computer than I should? Sure. Do I come on here and complain, though? No I do not sir, which is more than I can say for you. The young people aren't the problem, the problem is that with gaming becoming more mainstream, people who are newer to games, who just want to have fun and still be good at the game, without really want to put in work, are at odds with those who do not, who have been playing for longer, and tend to stick with games, but will also tend to be elitist at times. And then there are those like myself who don't really know where the hell they fit in.

Anyway, on topic, I do think a horizontal leveling system might be interesting, but unfortunately the MMO industry, and to some extent the entire gaming industry is in a weird spot right now. On one hand people claim they want something new and exciting, but they fail to realize that something completely different is too weird and risky for a company to put out. So instead the industry has to gradually move from one mindset to another. I think the WoW model is dying, slowly, and one day we may see a successful MMO with horizontal leveling, but its not going to happen any time soon.
*insert witty retort that will become someone's signature*- Kitty Prawn
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=347245
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"DPS is science, healing is art, tanking is strategy."

StockLoc's Avatar


StockLoc
08.15.2012 , 04:22 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
Well google led me to an article about it. It stinks! Basically it's the same old hammer-the-rpg-into-a-shooter arguement.
Gear makes no difference because every noob can get the same gear. So it comes down to player ability, and computer ability. Young kids with $5000 computers up against casual player adults with jobs and lives making do with what they can afford after paying the mortgage.
Never mind some of us adults have arthritis.
If SWTOR goes for horizontal scaling it will drive older casual players (you know, the ones with paid subscriptions) from the game.
Or you can do what many adults do and put gaming on hold. Begin finding ways to make your life better. I did that a month ago and it helped me wonders. I already bought a $2,000 gaming rig so I plan on being a basement troll again and living the rest of my life sub-par.

Morrolan's Avatar


Morrolan
08.15.2012 , 08:19 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
LMAO how exactly is that an advantage?? If you want a SHOOTER then go buy a SHOOTER.
Horizontal scaling takes away the RPG elements and makes it just another shooter for kids to play on the computer daddy bought for them, and leave in 3 weeks when they get bored.
There is no more story line, because you can jump right into Eternity Vault on day one.
The debate over horizontal progression vs vertical centres around PvP not PvE. And PvP like in the swtor warzones isn't really rpg like except in the sense of being able to have different character builds. And having different abilities instead of a power creep can be part of horizontal levelling.

Taugrim explains it well:
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-ga...of-vertically/

In fact horizontal levelling is part of rpgs. Some of the old systems that competed with DnD back in the day had more horizontal systems that were based around gaining more abilities than more power.
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