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Star Trek vs Star Wars (multiple scenarios)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Star Trek vs Star Wars (multiple scenarios)

ProfessorWalsh's Avatar


ProfessorWalsh
08.08.2012 , 10:20 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
True. But in most cases plasma is not ridiculously effective, it is effective. Plasma weapons are standard weapons in Star Trek throughout the ages. A little less effective than Phasers, but still dangerous. Especially if you remember that Star Wars ships have lot's and lot's of turbolasers/plasma cannons, while Star Trek ships only have a few phasers or disruptors.

Now, I think I also should say a little about these different battles.
Hold on there just one second.

Here is the problem.

The Tibana gas ability to get MORE energy out than what is put in is by FACTORS so...

Imagine...

A Star Trek ship is flying around... When they scoff at the "out dated" plasma... When that plasma hits their ships with a force 1,000 times more powerful than plasma should be.

That is where the Star Wars weapons have an edge, the physics defying capabilities of Tibana multiply the force output that plasma can have... Which jacks the power of a plasma bolt up by TEN FOLD what is even capable by physics.

As long as Star Wars has Tibana gas they win. Because getting hit by 1 blaster bolt, to trek, is like getting hit by 1,000 plasma bolts simultaneously all at the same location.

According to the numbers a lone X-Wing could fire a bolt at the NCC 1701-E, a single bolt mind you, that would plow through the shields, through the hull, through the ship, out of the other side of the hull, and punch through the back of the shields.

Star Trek is out gunned. Even the smallest Wars ship could pulverize the most powerful Federation vessel.
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Sipah's Avatar


Sipah
08.08.2012 , 10:50 PM | #22
Let's imagine for a moment that this is not an argument about which side's tech is more uber. In fact, take all the fancy schmancy phasers and blasters that defy physics out of the equation. Let's simply look at the respective size of each government entity.

In one corner we have the Empire:
The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy, stretching from the borders of the Deep Core to at least Wild Space.

In the other corner we have the Federation:
The Federation is described as an interstellar federal polity with, as of the year 2373, more than 150 member planets and thousands of colonies.

The Empire would very likely crush the Federation just in manufacturing might alone. Heck, they could build a steel moon and ram it into a planet for giggles and Federation weaponry would probably not dent it before it impacts the planet. The Empire can build ships the size of cities that Federation ships would get lost in. They chew up entire worlds for raw materials. They would throw a billion troopers in mass planetary invasions without batting an eye. They are more merciless than the Borg. How does one compete against that kind of power?

PaerisKiran's Avatar


PaerisKiran
08.09.2012 , 12:13 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh View Post
You don't have a choice. We have to go on what those manuals say because they create that universe. You can't determine a winner based on what you want we have to go by the "Facts" as presented by the respective IPs. Also no... Star Wars numbers were not written to be superior to Trek numbers, that is a very odd conspiracy theory.
Once can realize those numbers are utter nonsense by watching actual film/ clone wars series footage.

Look f.e. on slave one... it´s turbolasers are suppesed to have terawatt output... with that even glancing shot hitting unshielded starfighter should have pulverized (When Bobba tried to destroy it in Clone wars) it... but no... it justs scratches a long range transmiter away.

Using manual energy for a blaster rifle single hit should have make your body explode, (or at minum make half of your body water boil up) It has hard time. Yet it only blackes a wall (or a trees on Endor). (Truth be told it would be rather idiotic to fire such weapons on starship anyway since they should easily make a hull breach)
When all the world is overcharged with inhabitants, then the last remedy od all is war, which provided for every man, by victory or death.

PaerisKiran's Avatar


PaerisKiran
08.09.2012 , 12:30 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I like you Prof. You use facts to represent your argument and try to keep things respectful. I try to do that as well.

Now, as to the topic at hand. I think Star Wars would win. I think Star Wars weaponry is far more effective against trekkie stuff, like Walsh said. Plasma is very effective against Billy Shatner and his ship.
He isn´t right at one thing... SW blasters do not use "electric" plasma like Star trek... they use "heat" plasma. (where they simply fire superheated particle bolt with relatively low kinetic energy)

Plasma weapons are effective because of their effect on shields- true plasma is supercharged (but still quasi-neutral) state of matter where electrons travel freely around super-ionized atoms. That means insane electric gradients inside of it. Which cuts with certain types of shields with absurd ease. And it has rather devastating effects on hull matter too.
(One could argue though... that technology capable of producing non-discipative "electric" plasma bolt/beam would be on itself more devasting a weapon than the beam/bolt itself)

Mass Effect like kinetic barrier would stop it, but that would fall into a trap of quickly discipating it around the ship and that would rather quickly melt the ship hull as the byproduct- heat- destroys target.

Generaly only thing against plasma beam would be Asgard/Ancient shields from stargate- Since they actualy create plasma barriers around the ship.
When all the world is overcharged with inhabitants, then the last remedy od all is war, which provided for every man, by victory or death.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
08.09.2012 , 03:14 AM | #25
I like how most of these comments have entirely ignored my own statement:

Neither has the tech advantage here, they deal damage enough to pose significant threats to each other.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
08.09.2012 , 09:58 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh View Post
Hold on there just one second.

Here is the problem.

The Tibana gas ability to get MORE energy out than what is put in is by FACTORS so...

Imagine...

A Star Trek ship is flying around... When they scoff at the "out dated" plasma... When that plasma hits their ships with a force 1,000 times more powerful than plasma should be.

That is where the Star Wars weapons have an edge, the physics defying capabilities of Tibana multiply the force output that plasma can have... Which jacks the power of a plasma bolt up by TEN FOLD what is even capable by physics.

As long as Star Wars has Tibana gas they win. Because getting hit by 1 blaster bolt, to trek, is like getting hit by 1,000 plasma bolts simultaneously all at the same location.

According to the numbers a lone X-Wing could fire a bolt at the NCC 1701-E, a single bolt mind you, that would plow through the shields, through the hull, through the ship, out of the other side of the hull, and punch through the back of the shields.

Star Trek is out gunned. Even the smallest Wars ship could pulverize the most powerful Federation vessel.
So, when a rebel soldier on the Tantive IV is hit by a blaster bolt, why doesn't it go right through him, through the men behind him, through the hull of the ship and through the hull of the Star Destroyer?

When Anakin shoots at the shield generator besides the hangar of Grievous' ship, why doesn't the bolt go right through the ship and leaves it at the other side?

Star Trek has the same problem: In theory, a photon torpedo should have the energy of a middle sized atom bomb. You see that's obviously not the case, so the numbers must be wrong.


Of course, if the specc's of both, Star Wars and Star Trek, were made by scientists who analyzed what the weapons can do in the movies and concluded the numbers, then I would believe them. Was that the case?


Quote: Originally Posted by Sipah View Post
Let's imagine for a moment that this is not an argument about which side's tech is more uber. In fact, take all the fancy schmancy phasers and blasters that defy physics out of the equation. Let's simply look at the respective size of each government entity.

In one corner we have the Empire:
The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy, stretching from the borders of the Deep Core to at least Wild Space.

In the other corner we have the Federation:
The Federation is described as an interstellar federal polity with, as of the year 2373, more than 150 member planets and thousands of colonies.

The Empire would very likely crush the Federation just in manufacturing might alone. Heck, they could build a steel moon and ram it into a planet for giggles and Federation weaponry would probably not dent it before it impacts the planet. The Empire can build ships the size of cities that Federation ships would get lost in. They chew up entire worlds for raw materials. They would throw a billion troopers in mass planetary invasions without batting an eye. They are more merciless than the Borg. How does one compete against that kind of power?
Now that's the real deal. That's why the Federation would be nothing more than a local power in the Star Wars galaxy and the Empire would squish it like a bug in all out war. The Federation might win a few battles in the early phase of the war, but the Empire has so much more resources, it would win the war without problems.

But they are not more merciless than the Borg. Borg are not capable of showing mercy, if they ignore someone, it is for other reasons. On the other hand, Borg are also not capable of seeking revenge. The Empire is.

I think the Borg are the only power that could compete with major Star Wars powers. Maybe also the dominion, but I don't know how big their Empire is.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
I like how most of these comments have entirely ignored my own statement:

Neither has the tech advantage here, they deal damage enough to pose significant threats to each other.
That's always the case. Star Wars tech speccs and Star Trek "lasers are no threat" are always brought up in this kind of discussion. But at least some also wrote something to your scenarios.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
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Nydus's Avatar


Nydus
08.09.2012 , 12:09 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Species Rules: No force-users, military power only. No calling out-of-faction help.
Well, you've just taken out the one thing that would perhaps give the SW folks an edge (and not much of one).

Unfortunately, any major species of the ST canon could wipe out the Empire and Republic combined.

This is because the technology of the Federation and Star Trek major species is leaps and bounds over Star Wars. Given the decisive role technology plays in war, you simply can't remove "technology" levels in this scenario. A laser is not a phaser, warp drive is not hyperdrive.

Besides the obvious -- transporters (landing on a planet is considered quaint) -- it is simply a matter of the energy levels referred to in both canons.

A "laser" (turbo or otherwise) couldn't even penetrate the hull of star ship. At one point an enemy ship attacks the Enterprise with a laser and there is a debate as to whether they need to raise shields (the standard navigation deflectors which protect the ship from debris are considered sufficient).

The only point I'll give to SW (besides force users which you've removed from this scenario) is that they have superior ground forces. However, given that a single star ship could obliterate every imperial or alliance installation on a planet with a series of photons (which have yields in the isotonne range), or simply transport them out into space or into the middle of a rock ... i'm not qutie sure how helpful this advantage is.

Perhaps you could make a convincing argument that the sheer numbers of the SW faction would overwhelm the ST faction in the scenarios you've mentioned, but given that one little tinsy island conquered pretty much our entire planet at one point because they had better boats I'm not sure we can say that for sure.

Do we even have reliable populations of the Empire / Republic / Federation / etc.?

I know that the average "Fleet" in ST is smaller (Federation in the Original Series had about a dozen front-line constitution-class star ships and I imagine some leftovers from the previous line), but the references there are to their "star ships", which is essentially the deep space fleet (able to travel for years without refuel/resupply). A completely self-sustaining ship. We never really get an accurate read on the planetary/solar system militias although references are made to Federation Planets having these.

I suppose you have the Death Star but the ST universe illustrates even in the original series that the technology exists to destroy a planet. A mining vessel destroys Vulcan in the most recent movie. Not special technology. Rather commonplace actually.

Oh geeze. I didn't even mention replicators. There goes the ground forces superiority of the SW factions after the first encounter.

These are fun scenarios but pretty unanswerable given the questions that have never been explored in each canon.

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GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
08.09.2012 , 12:23 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
So, when a rebel soldier on the Tantive IV is hit by a blaster bolt, why doesn't it go right through him, through the men behind him, through the hull of the ship and through the hull of the Star Destroyer?

When Anakin shoots at the shield generator besides the hangar of Grievous' ship, why doesn't the bolt go right through the ship and leaves it at the other side?

Star Trek has the same problem: In theory, a photon torpedo should have the energy of a middle sized atom bomb. You see that's obviously not the case, so the numbers must be wrong.

Ah but there is a key fact you are missing, in Star Trek there is something known as Structural Integrity Fields, all starships in Star Trek have Structural Integrity Fields and Inertial Dampeners. Anyways, the structural integrity fields enable ships to shrug off hits that would pulverize the ship if they weren't active. SIF Generators have a pretty large safety margin built in, are always active (barring drydock), and are entirely seperate from the Shields.

We've seen shuttles, Galaxy Class starships (operating on only secondary power), and outdated BoPs flying into the corona of stars. We have yet to see a Star Wars ship capable of achieving the same feat.

The fact that ships survive hits from photon torpedos is not a sign of the torpedo being less powerful than advertised, it is a testiment to just how tough Star Trek ships are, and they have to be. The kinds of accelerations you routinely see a Star Trek ship pull, puts enormous stress on a ship and would cause the ship to rip itself apart if it didn't have those fields.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
08.09.2012 , 12:30 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Nydus View Post
A "laser" (turbo or otherwise) couldn't even penetrate the hull of star ship. At one point an enemy ship attacks the Enterprise with a laser and there is a debate as to whether they need to raise shields (the standard navigation deflectors which protect the ship from debris are considered sufficient).
As explained, Star Wars "lasers" aren't lasers, they are plasma weapons. And plasma weapons can do damage. In Star Trek, they are not as good as phasers, but remember, Star Trek ships normally fire only one phaser at a time, while Star Wars ships fire all their Plasma cannons... sorry, Turbo Lasers at once.That does make them dangerous for Star Trek vessels.

Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
The fact that ships survive hits from photon torpedos is not a sign of the torpedo being less powerful than advertised, it is a testiment to just how tough Star Trek ships are, and they have to be. The kinds of accelerations you routinely see a Star Trek ship pull, puts enormous stress on a ship and would cause the ship to rip itself apart if it didn't have those fields.
We have seen photon torpedo's fired at planets. I cant find the scene right now, but there is one were the photon torpedo hits destroyes a building, but not a whole city. And I don't know how canon "the final frontier" is, but there is a torpedo that hits a place only a few meters away from Kirk, and he doesn't die.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Kilikaa's Avatar


Kilikaa
08.09.2012 , 12:39 PM | #30
All this talk about whether the weapons and which can do what is all fine and good. It does take away from the main topic. It also surprise me that I was the only one so far to bring up a weapon that could throw all Star Trek ships into disarray. ION WEAPONS! I do not recall any Federation, Klingon, Romulan ect vessel having this kind of weapon. Considering what two shots from a planetary ion gun did to a ISD do you guys really think the Enterprise could withstand a shot? Could a Borg Cube withstand bombardment from two MC-80 Star Cruisers firing these weapons? Could ground and atmospheric vehicles in the ST universe survive shots from ion cannons?

Ion weapons shut down electronic devices. Sheilds, weapons, communications, propulsion systems would be knocked out for a while. All the techno talk and nobody else has brought this up surprises me. Think about it guys. Ion weapons could tip the balance.