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Jedi Are ***** < - spoilers for SWTOR

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Jedi Are ***** < - spoilers for SWTOR

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
08.13.2012 , 07:24 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
So, taking the Selonians hostage is still a war crime. (The Empire doesn't care for war crimes, of course.)

And "it's only a crime if you get caught" can be said for every state, even in the real world. You don't really want to tell me that if the Empire discovered you did these things a few month afterwards they wouldn't try to get you.

As far as I have seen the Empire, it's more like: It's only a crime if you don't have someone powerful who protects you.

I know it's always better to play through the story, but Bounty Hunter is on the bottom of my list. I don't like underworld stuff, and smuggler sounds more like fun. Since I'm a very slow leveller, I'll play Bounty Hunter probably in around a year. So what are the extenuating circumstances?

And the Supreme Chancallow also mentions "real crimes", so you must have broken Republic law at some point. If not, it's bad writing.
The Selonian situation is part of the extenuating circumstances. Tormen wants them. If I DON'T do it, he kills me. If you haven't seen Darth Tormen in action, you REALLY need to play through the entire BH story. That guy is nothin' nice. In fact, I believe he's the worst main villain in the entire game. The guy is out there even by Sith standards. Seriously, play through the BH story to get the perspective you need, and please stop jumping to conclusions before you know what all is going on.
. OPOD
The New Jedi Code: "Keep Calm & Carry a Lightsaber"

JediMasterYuvan's Avatar


JediMasterYuvan
08.14.2012 , 12:02 AM | #22
Regardless of what anyone's opinion is on Jedi, I say that they're SO stupid, the Jedi should be dead!!

Look at the Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars. The Jedi Council did nothing about it, despite how many times the Senate petitioned the Jedi's help. Had Revan and Malak not entered the conflict like real Jedi would, the Republic and Jedi alike would've been burning like the other worlds the Mandalorians burned: Duro, Eres III, Serroco, etc. Revan and Malak were the true Jedi. Real Jedi would go into the conflict and deal with it peacefully, not sit there in their Temple and call not dealing with the conflict "peaceful." That is SO arrogant and petty, no wonder the Jedi are so weak like the Sith. They just sit and deliberate while worlds die.

The Jedi are slaves to their own Code, thus they apply it as if they were rules ((A Code = guidlines than actual rules)). "There is no emotion, there is peace." Yeah, right! More like "there is no settling, there is only apathy." Even Ashara Zavros would think the same thing! And the Jedi just hide their emotions, that just makes look like total ****** bags to me. Why not use positive emotions to assist them in combat, similar to how the Sith use rage to fuel their strength?

And if the Jedi don't wanna become extinct then they should take every opportunity they have to win! Instead, they just take their brightest disciples and use them as slaves and puppets and hold them back! No wonder Anakin Skywalker and Ashara Zavros during their own respective eras were doubtful of the Jedi, because they never looked up to their potential! Anakin would've ended the Clone Wars; Ashara would've been a great weapon of the light side to end the conflict with the Sith. But NO!! Instead the Jedi just limit themselves to the powers they have and restrict their own Padawans and Knights from progressing. That is just SOO arrogant and sick; What- Is it like the Masters are the most powerful Jedi! No!

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
08.14.2012 , 10:53 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterYuvan View Post
Regardless of what anyone's opinion is on Jedi, I say that they're SO stupid, the Jedi should be dead!!

Look at the Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars. The Jedi Council did nothing about it, despite how many times the Senate petitioned the Jedi's help. Had Revan and Malak not entered the conflict like real Jedi would, the Republic and Jedi alike would've been burning like the other worlds the Mandalorians burned: Duro, Eres III, Serroco, etc. Revan and Malak were the true Jedi. Real Jedi would go into the conflict and deal with it peacefully, not sit there in their Temple and call not dealing with the conflict "peaceful." That is SO arrogant and petty, no wonder the Jedi are so weak like the Sith. They just sit and deliberate while worlds die.

The Jedi are slaves to their own Code, thus they apply it as if they were rules ((A Code = guidlines than actual rules)). "There is no emotion, there is peace." Yeah, right! More like "there is no settling, there is only apathy." Even Ashara Zavros would think the same thing! And the Jedi just hide their emotions, that just makes look like total ****** bags to me. Why not use positive emotions to assist them in combat, similar to how the Sith use rage to fuel their strength?

And if the Jedi don't wanna become extinct then they should take every opportunity they have to win! Instead, they just take their brightest disciples and use them as slaves and puppets and hold them back! No wonder Anakin Skywalker and Ashara Zavros during their own respective eras were doubtful of the Jedi, because they never looked up to their potential! Anakin would've ended the Clone Wars; Ashara would've been a great weapon of the light side to end the conflict with the Sith. But NO!! Instead the Jedi just limit themselves to the powers they have and restrict their own Padawans and Knights from progressing. That is just SOO arrogant and sick; What- Is it like the Masters are the most powerful Jedi! No!
^This. I've been saying this for years! The Jedi NEVER learn from their mistakes! They think they're infallible, in spite of being hunted to the brink of extinction several times. In spite of the fact that the number of Jedi who fell to the Dark Side BEFORE the Original Jedi Code got revised is nothing compared to how many have fallen SINCE "There is NO" was made the SOP. Until Luke's Jedi Order, there had NEVER been a complete deconstruction of the old ways and a construction of a new SOP. Luke put together a Jedi Order that actually uses positive emotions instead of trying to suppress them. To be fair, even Luke's NJO has its faults. But hey, any Jedi Order that says "It's ok to have a honey" is ok by me.
. OPOD
The New Jedi Code: "Keep Calm & Carry a Lightsaber"

Jaigen's Avatar


Jaigen
08.26.2012 , 08:42 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
The hostage situation is the one with the Selonians on Corellia. I haven't played Bounty Hunter, but in the videos I watched LS and DS bounty hunters took their "mothers and sisters" hostage to capture their leader. I'd consider this a war crime.

On Balmorra, you sabotage the work of an imperial officer for another imperial officer and you kill an imperial admiral. That makes you a criminal by imperial standards. I'll look up Nar Shadda soon, I guess you are also a criminal there.

Edit: Blowing up a research facility and blackmailing a lot of people. Well, yeah, these are standard bounty hinter crimes, but still crimes.
LOL. No its not. Mercs can only commit the same war crimes as regular soldiers and those are not warcrimes. taking political prisoners is not a warcrime. For the record SAS commando's often attacked nazi politicians during WW2. are they criminals? Acts of sabotage and subterfuge are not warcrimes. So no the BH is not a war criminal or even a criminal.

That Jun declared a personal vendetta against the BH because hit jedi pride got hurt doesn't make a criminal but it does make him incredibly stupid

Serris_Kell's Avatar


Serris_Kell
08.26.2012 , 11:29 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
Taking down enemy combatants isn't a war crime. Capturing enemy commanders isn't a war crime. Pwning a Jedi on the opposing side isn't a war crime. The only times I had to "take hostages", I let them go immediately. Hell, they weren't even hostages. Just civilians in the wrong place at the wrong time. The guy asked me to let them leave, so I said "Ok, I have no problem with that."

Oh, and I even rescued some Republic miners on Quesh that had been left to die by the Republic. You get plenty of choices to do the right thing in the game.
Technically speaking, under current international laws, being a mercenary is a War Crime in and of itself. As a non-uniformed, foreign combatant that abuses the protection afforded to civilians to attack military targets, greatly endangering said noncombatants.

For the record, mercenaries (AKA: "defense contractors") are scum, and generally spat upon in real life by any soldier of any nationality worth his or her salt. They're only glamorous in fiction.
"Fear is a lie. Passion is a lie. Fears gives temporary powers, and passion is easily manipulated. Real strength in the Force comes when one is no longer afraid."
―Kel'eth Ur

RazielHex's Avatar


RazielHex
08.30.2012 , 10:09 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaigen View Post
LOL. No its not. Mercs can only commit the same war crimes as regular soldiers and those are not warcrimes. taking political prisoners is not a warcrime. For the record SAS commando's often attacked nazi politicians during WW2. are they criminals? Acts of sabotage and subterfuge are not warcrimes. So no the BH is not a war criminal or even a criminal.

That Jun declared a personal vendetta against the BH because hit jedi pride got hurt doesn't make a criminal but it does make him incredibly stupid
I invoke Godwin's Law.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
09.06.2012 , 05:16 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterYuvan View Post
Regardless of what anyone's opinion is on Jedi, I say that they're SO stupid, the Jedi should be dead!!

Look at the Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars. The Jedi Council did nothing about it, despite how many times the Senate petitioned the Jedi's help. Had Revan and Malak not entered the conflict like real Jedi would, the Republic and Jedi alike would've been burning like the other worlds the Mandalorians burned: Duro, Eres III, Serroco, etc. Revan and Malak were the true Jedi. Real Jedi would go into the conflict and deal with it peacefully, not sit there in their Temple and call not dealing with the conflict "peaceful." That is SO arrogant and petty, no wonder the Jedi are so weak like the Sith. They just sit and deliberate while worlds die.

The Jedi are slaves to their own Code, thus they apply it as if they were rules ((A Code = guidlines than actual rules)). "There is no emotion, there is peace." Yeah, right! More like "there is no settling, there is only apathy." Even Ashara Zavros would think the same thing! And the Jedi just hide their emotions, that just makes look like total ****** bags to me. Why not use positive emotions to assist them in combat, similar to how the Sith use rage to fuel their strength?

And if the Jedi don't wanna become extinct then they should take every opportunity they have to win! Instead, they just take their brightest disciples and use them as slaves and puppets and hold them back! No wonder Anakin Skywalker and Ashara Zavros during their own respective eras were doubtful of the Jedi, because they never looked up to their potential! Anakin would've ended the Clone Wars; Ashara would've been a great weapon of the light side to end the conflict with the Sith. But NO!! Instead the Jedi just limit themselves to the powers they have and restrict their own Padawans and Knights from progressing. That is just SOO arrogant and sick; What- Is it like the Masters are the most powerful Jedi! No!
Seems you REALLY missed the point on all those fronts considering the Jedi were right, every single time.

They didn't want to fight the Mandalorians because they believed something far darker was behind the war, they were right, a massive Empire just itching to attack them was in the unknown regions waiting, Revan and the like bit on that bait hook, line and sinker, to the Emperor's joy.

They were also right not to let the Jedi in training do what they want willy nilly, *Cough* Exar Kun *cough* when Anakin and Zavros were borderline Dark Side and Anakin went on to become the exterminator of the Jedi order, Darth Vader and control a miserable Galactic Empire for over twenty years, which claimed billions if not trillions of lives through the Galactic Civil War.

And what redeemed Vader, killed the Emperor and ended the Galactic Empire? the Jedi teachings that Luke had learnt.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
09.08.2012 , 12:35 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Serris_Kell View Post
Technically speaking, under current international laws, being a mercenary is a War Crime in and of itself. As a non-uniformed, foreign combatant that abuses the protection afforded to civilians to attack military targets, greatly endangering said noncombatants.

For the record, mercenaries (AKA: "defense contractors") are scum, and generally spat upon in real life by any soldier of any nationality worth his or her salt. They're only glamorous in fiction.
If what you say is true, then EVERY DEFENSE CONTRACTOR THAT FIELDS OPERATIVES needs to be brought to the Hague and charged with war crimes. Btw, Star Wars is NOT REAL LIFE.
. OPOD
The New Jedi Code: "Keep Calm & Carry a Lightsaber"

Necrosaro's Avatar


Necrosaro
09.12.2012 , 11:46 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Seems you REALLY missed the point on all those fronts considering the Jedi were right, every single time.

They didn't want to fight the Mandalorians because they believed something far darker was behind the war, they were right, a massive Empire just itching to attack them was in the unknown regions waiting, Revan and the like bit on that bait hook, line and sinker, to the Emperor's joy.

They were also right not to let the Jedi in training do what they want willy nilly, *Cough* Exar Kun *cough* when Anakin and Zavros were borderline Dark Side and Anakin went on to become the exterminator of the Jedi order, Darth Vader and control a miserable Galactic Empire for over twenty years, which claimed billions if not trillions of lives through the Galactic Civil War.

And what redeemed Vader, killed the Emperor and ended the Galactic Empire? the Jedi teachings that Luke had learnt.
Actually i disagree to a degree, one of the points in KOTOR 2 was that the Jedi weren't right in just sitting around when the Mandalorians were invading. However the game showed that Revan wasn't right either, the Jedi did have a responsibility to the millions upon millions of Republic citizens being slaughtered and they failed them. However to simply wage a war against the mandalorians had consequences as well. The interaction between Meetra and Atris is an excellent scene because it delves into the back and forth debate on what the Jedi are really responsible for. Sure they need to be careful and not just rush into situations, but they cannot lose sight of the people who suffer. When you allow millions upon millions to die and you just say "hey it is necessary," then you have failed as a Jedi.

Yes Revan returned to wage war upon the Republic and caused massive damage, however the Mandalorians were doing just that without him. The Emperor didn't really care who crippled the Republic, the fact that it was Revan actually was the best solution as he managed to delay the invasion until the Republic managed to recover.

The Jedi were flawed at that point, they were arrogant and too sure of themselves, just like the Jedi in the prequel movies, they lost sight of what they should have been doing and became complacent. They needed to be shaken up and replaced with Jedi who could do their jobs better.

Luke wasn't a Jedi in the same vein as the previous order, he taught his students differently and they were better off for that.

Ooloi's Avatar


Ooloi
09.13.2012 , 11:30 AM | #30
the current Jedi council are a bunch of weak, fearful hypocrites. Satele Shan is more Sham than Shan.

In their own fears they open the way to the dark side. Indicisive, cowardly, supporting "the ends justifies the means" often by actions while denying it by words, it just goes on and on.

And the way the story portrays Tython as being run, it might as well be a school for "how not to train lightside jedi" - they're practically begging people to go dark side. Let's not give any direct in the field supervision, let's not remonstrate with students who make dark side choices. Excuses are accepted at face value, no correcting of bad behavior is even mentioned let alone tempted. Rewards are given out willy-nilly to those who exhibit bad behavior just as much as those who don't.

Jedi masters encourage students to spy upon each other, employing deceit, then tattle-tell back to get them in trouble. Emotions are to be suppressed, personal bonds are discouraged in the extreme - and people are supposed to be social critters - where is the support for people not to feel lonely and cut off?

The council is apparently unable to sense dark side. It even has traitors on the council. Others herein have mentioned the callous warlike manner ascribed to Jedi masters in numerous locations, with relative innocents being killed, severe overreactions, etc. All the petty emotions they claim to eschew are brought up time and again.

And their pious arrogant talk which is not born out by their actions. Plus they have a severe tendancy to first encourage dependency in ordinary folks, followed by resentment of that dependency in the local population, all done by those who put themselves above ordinary people. "Do as I say, not as I do" appears to be the rule of the day.

They constantly hamstring the actions of the rest of the republic, and appear to be politically inept (and at the same time) constantly interferring while publicly "withdrawing" their support of critical actions to save the republic.

Liars. Hypocrits. Weaklings. Throw the bums out.