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Jasozan's Class Balance Discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Jasozan's Class Balance Discussion

stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
08.05.2012 , 08:56 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by JasozanLok View Post
Force Sweep is the equivalent of Smash. The changes in it's damage talents in the trees will decrease this damage that is dealt.
And regarding shadows??.

My main class is marauder but you don't mention it?

JasozanLok's Avatar


JasozanLok
08.05.2012 , 08:59 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by stephenalandavie View Post
And regarding shadows??.

My main class is marauder but you don't mention it?
Marauder is the Empire equivalent of Sentinel.

stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
08.05.2012 , 09:03 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by JasozanLok View Post
Marauder is the Empire equivalent of Sentinel.
Ok fair enough just been reading it,

But i suggest you take a look at your shadow section again, its ridiculous they have already been nerfed, Do you realize they aren't even really wanted in Rwz's??.

Bad force management and bad DPS trees makes them pretty pathetic at times they have to be played really well and the only real spec which works in pvp is a hybrid. That in itself says it all.

Fyda's Avatar


Fyda
08.05.2012 , 09:03 PM | #24
I don't even know where to begin. Every change is bad.

Sentinels just have too much. They should lose abilities, while guardian should get some. Give Guarded by the Force to Guardians and make it usable only while in a DPS-Stance? I would even say that sentinels should lose dispatch and pacify, they both seem more like a guardian-abilities. This should be enough probably, it gives healers the possibility of healing DPS-Guardians.

DPS-Scoundrels: People say that their stealth is the gap-closer. Why does Disappearing Act have such a high cooldown then? Reduce it drastically. This would be an easy fix and add a lot of fun and variety to the class. Make it a high DPS-talent though, Healers with a 30? second Disappearing Act would be annoying as hell. That would probably be too strong, so let scoundrel get out of stealth automatically after 5? seconds and remove the ability to reenter normal stealth for another 10? seconds. Give them a movementspeed-buff while in Disappearing Act.

EDIT: I think sages should get something similar to Ice Block.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
08.05.2012 , 09:11 PM | #25
I'll only speak about ranged classes because this could easily turn into a dissertation - afterall, we need explanations for why every change is necessary.

I think snipers are fine where they are. I think they are a model for bw to rework commando dps with. in fact, they are the only ranged class that is able to maintain range w/o being interrupted for a useful amount of time. what I mean by "useful" is that they can pop enough cds and have enough defensive abilities that they can actually use their dps abilities - and not just when the other team completely ignores them.

sages have a good deal of mobility with their sprint and slow, but I find them extremely easy targets in regular wzs (on my sent, van, commando). I don't have one of my own, so I can't speak to their handicaps. but as I said, I like to see them when I'm on a dps. and they're extremely easy targets on my vanguard with a harpoon and a quick ion pulse (let the burning commence!).

the commando dps is a hot mess. gunnery requires multiple (optimally 3) 1.5s casts of grav before dps in earnest can actually begin, and that dps is a channeled abil (3s?) followed (finally!) by 2 instants, but if the channeled procs, it takes precedent over the instants. gunnerys are utterly immobile and unlike snipers, they can be pushed and pulled at range. unlike snipers and sages, they have no root to go along with their punt, so punting, even with the extra 5/8m (?) isn't going to keep anyone off with a gap closer and will maybe buy one 1.5 cast, assuming the opponent doesn't have a ranged interrupt (e.g., assassin). gunnery is not viable at all against any class that is played with even average skill.

commando assault specialist is more mobile than gunnery and can do more up front burst. thus is it far better suited to pvp when dealing with remotely skilled players. however. its defenses are even worse than gunnery. he doesn't get the defense buff for charged barrier, his punt is 5 or 8m shorter, and his stockstrick doesn't knockback (bad interrupt). he still requires channeling full auto (3s?) to proc hib (the main attack) or casting charged bolt (1.5s for terrible dps for that amount of time casting).

what do I think of the proposed changes?

there's no need to make changing cells automatic. when sages/shadows change, it costs them 100 force. a shadow only has 100 force to start with. the only problem switching cells is that if you don't complete the switch, say you start moving too soon or get knocked back or something, then you have NO cell active. that's just dumb. if you don't actually complete the switch, the previous cell should remain active.

fixes for commandos:
  • give both dps specs a root on their punt (feel free to eliminate the extended punt and knockback).
  • give them an interrupt or an aoe stun (preferably like awe that breaks on dmg but ala neural surge is fine too). make the commando CHOOSE between a punt with root or the area stun. the slow on full auto in gunnery is a joke. you can't run away from the slowed target while channeling, and the target can close the gap by the time the channel is over anyway. good luck getting to a fullauto with 5 grav vortexes in the first place, btw. so that slowed target is likely getting 2 or no extra debuffs while eating the gimped FA.
  • You could also pull Hold The Line from the Vanguard Tactics tree and give it to the dps commandos (medic would like it but doesn't need).
  • DON'T SHOW CELLS/STANCES IN "BUFF BAR" FOR ENEMIES TO SEE.
  • GET RID OF THE GREEN BEAM OF DEATH. the latter two apply to medics and wth? why do I even need to tell you to do this? do sages have stance markers? do scoundrels? what about big green arrows telling enemies exactly where the other team's healer is? nope. you have to see a sage casting something and then see the yellow puddle on the ground and THEN mark them as heals...or you have to see what they're casting while targeted. commando healers are the worst total healing in the game as is. they really don't need the extra disadvantage. i'm not saying buff them. i'm saying you don't f*&( a stranger in the a%$.

now I will make one last observation: in 1.2, Master Strike was made uninterruptable on all JKs. MS isn't a core attack in all sentinel and guardian trees, but it is to some, and not being able to get it off was seriously hampering their viability. Ok. why on earth was it buffed for ALL sentinals? it's just gravy on a watchman, who's already working with a ton of single target abils and dcds. but I digress. The real point is thus: why is MS uninterrubtable, but Full Auto is not? they're both channels. they're vital channels for both dps trees. other classes can make their channel uninterruptable (shadow tank). and many JKs didn't even NEED the abil to get their stuff off in the first place. do you see where I"m going here? you buffed an entire class when only one or two (out of SIX) trees needed it. meanwhile BOTH commando dps trees need it, but instead they get no root and no interrupt (ironically now worthless against said MS).
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JasozanLok's Avatar


JasozanLok
08.05.2012 , 09:12 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Fyda View Post
I don't even know where to begin. Every change is bad.

Sentinels just have too much. They should lose abilities, while guardian should get some. Give Guarded by the Force to Guardians and make it usable only while in a DPS-Stance? I would even say that sentinels should lose dispatch and pacify, they both seem more like a guardian-abilities. This should be enough probably, it gives healers the possibility of healing DPS-Guardians.

DPS-Scoundrels: People say that their stealth is the gap-closer. Why does Disappearing Act have such a high cooldown then? Reduce it drastically. This would be an easy fix and add a lot of fun and variety to the class. Make it a high DPS-talent though, Healers with a 30? second Disappearing Act would be annoying as hell. That would probably be too strong, so let scoundrel get out of stealth automatically after 5? seconds and remove the ability to reenter normal stealth for another 10? seconds. Give them a movementspeed-buff while in Disappearing Act.
I don't disagree with you there- Sentinels do have quite a lot at their disposal. However, I find what keeps them somewhat balanced is that although they have a lot, they cannot use it all at once- so they need to pick and choose, so it's not -that- bad. I will look into your suggestion, however, as you do have a point. As for DPS scoundrels, I'll check that out as well.

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
08.05.2012 , 09:35 PM | #27
Pretty much every post in the sorc/sage feedback threads is of the negative nature. In other feedback threads you'll see mixed opinions and in some cases even an overwhelming positivity. Some people are even saying that their classes are OP.

Yet here we have a guy who's willing to change...nothing. And yes, I read your reply regarding the addition of a defensive CD. As one of the more competent sages/sorcs here I'd have to say that it's a terrible idea. I want it to be a glass cannon and you don't become a glass cannon by adding a defensive CD and keeping low burst. Staying alive as a sorc/sage is not the problem. The problem is that you won't be very useful in that time unless you're actually able to kill stuff.

stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
08.05.2012 , 09:52 PM | #28
lol i notice you dodge the shadows bit

DeimosAmon's Avatar


DeimosAmon
08.07.2012 , 05:56 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by stephenalandavie View Post
But i suggest you take a look at your shadow section again, its ridiculous they have already been nerfed, Do you realize they aren't even really wanted in Rwz's??.
Not sure how people on your server play Shadows? Have seen Shadows in our guild put up 500k dmg/200k protection in a ranked game of normal length. Hybrid Darkness/Madness with DPS mods in tank 4pc set bonus is probably the strongest class and spec currently in the game. A well played Shadow shouldn't lose a 1v1 to anyone, not even a Marauder with all CDs up, and they can guard, and peel, and carry the huttball, and stealth. I'm not saying nerf them into oblivion but the Shadows we have who come to ranked say they still need to be fixed. The clearest way to fix Shadows is to divorce Darkness of some of its DPS capability, possibly through a bigger flat reduction on the stance, but at the same time buff the other two DPS specs to be more viable.

As far as VG/PT stuff goes, I actually think the OP is somewhat on the right track if BW wants to bring our DPS down a bit. Except you shouldn't remove the auto-proc DoT since the presence of a burning effect on demand is critical to the rotation, and Incediary is just not viable with its resource cost except as an opener. Instead if they change something it should just be a flat reduction on how much damage the cylinder does, since in parses your cylinder DoT accounts for more damage than Rail Shot or Flame Burst.
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DarkSaberMaster
08.07.2012 , 06:02 PM | #30
I can take a wild guess at what classes you do and don't play from your "suggestions" list.
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