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Pyrotech PvP


oakamp's Avatar


oakamp
08.09.2012 , 03:16 AM | #11
oops , i cant delete my post
English is not my first language, still working on it.

dardack's Avatar


dardack
08.09.2012 , 07:10 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
I have 0% additional accuracy, so that Ranged accuracy is 90% and Tech accuracy is 100%. Accuracy, as I have found, is not that great for increased tech damage and the 5.36% you get to Ranged from using 3 Power/Accuracy enhancements is just not worth the lost Surge. A 10% miss chance is a very narrow window and "feels" more like 1% miss chance in actual fights. The extra 1.2% Surge you gain from going pure surge enhancements adds up, especially in long games.
What rank are these top ranked Pyro's? Just curious, most 2.2k+ pyros I know run the 7/3/31 and run 98% accuracy, cause if you miss with RS your biggest hitter, that's a huge drop in DPS.

Also what's your crit chance?

EDIT:
BTW I believe you're wrong in the stack power over aim and saying aim shouldn't be above 1500. Aim>Power ESPECIALLY without 9% aim from ST tree. And it still is substained since aim gives to damage and crit. So all Augments should be aim. Obviously I agree all mods should be the 51aim/39 power since loosing 13 aim for 27 power is better, but I'm like 1615 unbuffed, 1915 with 6% aim/stim, I'm still unsure of your spec not having the 6-9% aim.
Doofensmirtz lvl 50 PTIn Erebus Drooga's Pleasure Barge. 4 Imps 50. Doofentrooper lvl 50 VG in Goof Troop DPB
Dear BW please have RS/HiB send me to other fleet Nekkid. TY. Also, don't allow 3 sin/shadow 2 sorc/sage teams in HB. That is all.

wetslampigduex's Avatar


wetslampigduex
08.09.2012 , 07:40 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
I used to run AP months ago and switched over to Pyro. Every one of the Pyro specs I've found on the internet is pretty bad. I think people just assume that you need to be stacking a stupid amount of Aim to make Pyro work, and trying to cram in useless utility. This is not true and just a bad way to spec.

You should be stacking nothing but max power mods and max power/surge enhancements with power (overkill) augments on every piece of gear. Your total Aim should NEVER be over 1550, but your Power rating will be over 1200 (giving you a stupid amount of sustained damage and an even more ridiculous amount of damage on crit). Power is better DPS than Aim is, per point - hands down.

Your Ranged Crit should be not higher than 23% buffed (which makes RS Crit chance 38% from the Elim set bonus) and Tech Crit Chance should not be over 30% (Crit works on Ranged and Tech attacks simultaneously, but Tech has a higher natural crit chance). With allt he power you stack, even if you do somehow happen to miss a crit with Rail Shot, your FB and CGC dots will destroy your opponent.

If you're putting points anywhere outside of Rapid Venting and Gyroscopic Alignment Jets, then you don't know how to spec. You don't need anything from the Shieldtech tree other than Rail Loaders, and your spec should really look like 2/8/31. This is the link for the spec all the best Ranked Pyros run. I'm not even fully min/max'd (about 2 mods from it) and I hit full WH geared players for 5k+ on a regular basis.

In a really bad match, I only die about 5 times...in a really bad match. You'll win any DPS race, and if you know how to pillar hump and kite, you'll never get more than 1 or 2 deaths (even with Pyro's lack of utility) when solo queueing - which is why Energy Rebounder is freaking awesome to spec into.

I know that was a lengthy read, but it has a lot of very important material in it. If you think I'm just some FOTM newbie, I invite you to watch my videos on my Youtube Channel. I am just trying to help out a newcomer to the Pyro scene, and help him get it right the first time so he doesn't spend the rest of the Preseason bouncing from one spec to another due to misinformation

I don't know man, I'd have to disagree here. Just a few days ago i got another piece of WH and it dropped my accuracy down to 96% i went in to a WZ and 3 of my first 10 RS missed or were dodged. Do what you do, but personally id rather have my 1650 aim and 98-99% accuracy. My rail shots don't often crit for 5k like you are saying yours are but its a constant 4300-4800. Also, why only have a 17% base crit(unbuffed) if u dont get a crit on ur TD half your burst is gone right there. If you were a tank (which i am in pve) i would 100% agree that accuracy is not needed but to chance a miss for an extra 200-500 dmg on an ability that u might not even hit an enemy with is in my eyes not worth it.

Chances are if your trying to burn down a tank(few and far between in WZ's) that your maybe going to land 50% of your railshots. And by that time his healer is back for a never ending cycle.

Also you state that power is better than aim per point... you do realize that the difference is aim- .20 per point and power= .23 dmg per point ...... I'm willing to bet that you would have a higher overall DPS stacking all Aim augments b/c in addition it also increase your crit chance

Just an opinion take from it what you want

Sippix's Avatar


Sippix
08.09.2012 , 02:08 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by dardack View Post
What rank are these top ranked Pyro's? Just curious, most 2.2k+ pyros I know run the 7/3/31 and run 98% accuracy, cause if you miss with RS your biggest hitter, that's a huge drop in DPS.

Also what's your crit chance?

EDIT:
BTW I believe you're wrong in the stack power over aim and saying aim shouldn't be above 1500. Aim>Power ESPECIALLY without 9% aim from ST tree. And it still is substained since aim gives to damage and crit. So all Augments should be aim. Obviously I agree all mods should be the 51aim/39 power since loosing 13 aim for 27 power is better, but I'm like 1615 unbuffed, 1915 with 6% aim/stim, I'm still unsure of your spec not having the 6-9% aim.
These top Ranked Pyros I'm talking about are 86-4 and 49-1 (2.2k+) and that's just the couple that I can think of off the top of my head without being logged in and Inspecting. None of them run the 7/3/31 or any of the 6%/9% Aim variants. They are all power and focus on increasing TD/FB/CGC crit chance/damage from Prototype Burn Enhancers, Prototype Cylinders and Hot Iron in the AP skill tree (which synergize with Burnout and Superheated Gas int he Pyro tree). You still end up with an extremely high amount of crit on Tech attacks, it just doesn't get added to your character sheet, but you should end up with 39% Tech Crit on TD/FB/CGC and 42% when your target is below 30% HP.

Quote: Originally Posted by wetslampigduex View Post
I don't know man, I'd have to disagree here. Just a few days ago i got another piece of WH and it dropped my accuracy down to 96% i went in to a WZ and 3 of my first 10 RS missed or were dodged. Do what you do, but personally id rather have my 1650 aim and 98-99% accuracy. My rail shots don't often crit for 5k like you are saying yours are but its a constant 4300-4800. Also, why only have a 17% base crit(unbuffed) if u dont get a crit on ur TD half your burst is gone right there. If you were a tank (which i am in pve) i would 100% agree that accuracy is not needed but to chance a miss for an extra 200-500 dmg on an ability that u might not even hit an enemy with is in my eyes not worth it.

Chances are if your trying to burn down a tank(few and far between in WZ's) that your maybe going to land 50% of your railshots. And by that time his healer is back for a never ending cycle.

Also you state that power is better than aim per point... you do realize that the difference is aim- .20 per point and power= .23 dmg per point ...... I'm willing to bet that you would have a higher overall DPS stacking all Aim augments b/c in addition it also increase your crit chance

Just an opinion take from it what you want
If you missed 3 of your first 10 in a WZ match, you probably tried popping an RS on a player that had their ranged/damage invulnerability up (like an IA/Smug and Sin/Shad have). If this wasn't the case, then I really don't believe your statement. I can tell you now that in all my time playing Pyro with 90% Ranged Accuracy, I've never missed more than once consecutively, unless the aforementioned occurred.

You're probably only seeing 4.2k-4.8k hits on people that are not full WH or running with <1.1k Expertise. Without being full WH min/max'd, you simply will not be able to hit a heavy armor-high expertise opponent for as much as you claim. I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just saying that mitigation would take a chunk out of your raw damage, and regular WZ's are not the best place to be talking about numbers since it's a grab-bag of gear.

Also, TD (thermal Detonator) is not a Ranged attack - It's a Tech attack (which is why the damage it applies is shown as yellow). Having said that, TD has a base 30% crit, plus an additional 3% from Prototype Cylinders and another additional 3% once your target is under 30% HP (for 33%/36%). The fact you don't know that TD is a Tech attack kind of tells me you're very new to the Pyro scene - It's a Tech attack that deals Kinetic damage. I'm not discounting your skill, only your working knowledge of the class.

Stacking Aim works on its own set of DR (Diminishing Returns). Meaning, the more Aim you stack, the less of a crit bonus it gives you - Hence, the more Aim you stack, the less effective the Aim stat is for overall damage. Power has no DR and will always increase raw damage output the same amount regardless of how high it's being stacked. Also, stacking a lot of crit does not mean you do more damage, it only means you have a higher chance to crit. You can still miss crit hit chances very often with 35%+ Ranged crit (buffed), and without the Power to back it up if you do miss a crit chance, you'e just tickling your opponent. Using the 2/8/31 spec and the Power gearing route, you're guaranteed to do massive amounts of sustained damage with or without a crit. A player stacking max power over Acc/Crit will ALWAYS out-damage a player that stacks Acc/Crit, AND do more damage on a crit (again, due to having so much Power).

Let's look at some math:

A player stacking ~1800 Aim/~540 Power (95.34% Ranged Acc/35.16% Ranged Crit) will have a bonus damage of ~509.

A player stacking ~1500 Aim/~1220 Power (90.00% Ranged Acc/23.12 Ranged Crit) will have a bonus damage of ~611.

Looking at that, I'm doing 100+ damage more every single RS and 178+ damage on a crit. But it doesn't just stop at RS, it get stupid huge for FB, CGC and TD because they are Tech Attacks and work off of a higher Bonus Damage table. Adding in the increased crit chance from the 2/8/21 Tech/Fire synergies and you're looking at being right back where you were with critical hit chances when stacking Aim. The only thing anyone is actually losing is Accuracy, which I have found through my own trial and error, to be worthless in pvp. To get Acc, you have to sacrifice Surge. If you sacrifice Surge, you're sacrificing Crit damage. If you're sacrificing crit damage, why are you even spec'd as Pyro?
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RockaXL's Avatar


RockaXL
08.09.2012 , 03:26 PM | #15
Sippix might have a point and could be that if 1.4 wont bring major Pyro nerf I'll get rid of some aim.. atm buffed aim is bit less than 2k, ranged accuracy about 95% and unbuffed crit around 29.5%, . Currently I'm running 8/2/31.

I actually recorded one game for first time last night and uploaded it on youtube. It's just a pug warmup run while waiting rwz:s to start so there are some soft opponents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Rg...&feature=g-upl
Hellrobe - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

RockaXL's Avatar


RockaXL
08.19.2012 , 09:57 AM | #16
I did a small test by dropping aim from 1980 to around 1750 where power goes from 550 to ~850 (bonus dmg goes up 35-40) while losing few percent from crit (ranged 26%) and accuracy (93%). There's absolutely no noticeable difference in overall dmg. Crit's maybe little higher but not much. I'm not sure is it worth to take this experiment further..
Hellrobe - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

oakamp's Avatar


oakamp
08.19.2012 , 07:54 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by RockaXL View Post
I did a small test by dropping aim from 1980 to around 1750 where power goes from 550 to ~850 (bonus dmg goes up 35-40) while losing few percent from crit (ranged 26%) and accuracy (93%). There's absolutely no noticeable difference in overall dmg. Crit's maybe little higher but not much. I'm not sure is it worth to take this experiment further..
i did a small test too, not worth it,
so i change back long time ago.
English is not my first language, still working on it.

SneiK's Avatar


SneiK
08.20.2012 , 06:49 PM | #18
It's rather simple really.

You either stack Aim, if you spec into Steely Resolve (6-9% depending if you spec into TD or not),

or you stack Power, if you don't spec Steely Resolve (Going for some increased tech crit/FB dmg instead)

They are both on par with overall dmg done in a warzone, but I personally prefer the Power route in gear, as I can then respec into Advanced Tools (CD reduction on pull/flamethrower) in Huttball.

Also, getting accuracy to 100% or above is a personal preference (depends how you play, and what targets you go for first), but you should really not stand at 90% ranged accuracy. Non-tanking classes have inherent defence % as well. For instance, a pyro has 7% defence chance (with IS), so if you're sitting at 90%, that's more like 83% hit chance (0,837 I guess). Tech cannot be dodged, only missed (if your tech accuracy goes below 100% due to debuffs), so you don't have to worry about tech accuracy so much. This is why a pyro really needs accuracy, as their bread and butter is ranged, which can be dodged, even at 100% accuracy.

EDIT: Oh and yes, I know some 'top' pyros spec into steely resolve, so don't try to act like you know something 'normal' pyros don't.