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Guide: Guardian DPS for PVE Raiding

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Guide: Guardian DPS for PVE Raiding

Aienir's Avatar


Aienir
08.03.2012 , 09:06 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Mattmonkey View Post
Yes the guide I made is based on researching what other people are doing as well as my own experinece. So a lot of it has been gathered from about the place - i have really only put the information in one place, first play testing it. I have just started testing a slight chage to the priority i suggest which goes Sunder OS, BS, Sunder (MS / PB) Sunder. I think this may be slighly superior because the PB bleed has a 12 second cool down and BS always crits.

The thing regarding momentum is that the issue is not a focus issue its a cool down issue. OS, BS & PB all have 9 second cool downs and OS & BS have 6 second bleed duration. So the best dps is generated by keeping those bleeds up by using those abilities every 9 sec. there is enough focus to do this if you use sunder which also puts out OK damage. There no need to run out and leap for the extra focus, this uses 2 skill points you could better use somewhere else and involves at least 3 but probably 4 global cools downs meaning you cannot do this and maximise your bleed up time. If there where focus issues i would appriciate your elegant solution which also takes some skill to excute efficently.
I do agree on principal but there is some fights where it is useful (Toth and Zorn do come to mind, so does the Fabricator Droid and the Annihilator Droid, Soa, Bonethrasher and Foreman Crusher)

The inherent 20% damage reduction from Momentum is also extremely nice IMHO, but it is a bit of a PVP talent more than a PVE talent, just like Unremitting.

**Edit: BTW, the whole guide is very well written. I approve =) Its good to see someone besids myself try to write these things!
Raif
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Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
08.03.2012 , 09:13 PM | #12
yea i agree there are fights where you have to leap back in. also there are fights where it makes sense to build focus and hit your big damage abilities one after the other to create a burst. The bombadears on Kephess come to mind and being able to generate a lot of focus quickly is necessary for that.

Thx mate

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
08.06.2012 , 01:08 AM | #13
original post updated

Lyrik

Dalfurend's Avatar


Dalfurend
08.06.2012 , 10:26 AM | #14
So I went ahead and tried the rotation you recommended, and the dps did look higher than getting the leap as often as possible. I yield, on that point :P

I still think momentum is a worthwhile talent, though. You don't really need commanding awe in a raid setting imo, and swelling winds is probably not all that great either.

I really wish when you respec, they would give you an hour or so before you were tied down to it... I really do want to try the different variations. Unfortunately I raid in vigilance, pvp in focus and hybrid. I reach that 50k way too fast...

This has been pretty helpful so far.
Zetsuma
<Lethal Dose Fifty>
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Karasuko's Avatar


Karasuko
08.08.2012 , 07:12 PM | #15
Pretty fair guide but just a few questions.
-Why have blade storm so high up your priority list? costs alot of force and its bleed is the weakest of all 3.
-Force sweep isn't part of your basic rotation? Its free and is good for GCD filling while waiting for something else to come off CD.
-Same goes for Force push,Saber throw except the generate alot of focus .
-Bunny hopping. I do this a fair bit with open GCD's. G Leap one person (healer preferably) then F leap straight back in.

Aienir's Avatar


Aienir
08.08.2012 , 09:05 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Dalfurend View Post
So I went ahead and tried the rotation you recommended, and the dps did look higher than getting the leap as often as possible. I yield, on that point :P

I still think momentum is a worthwhile talent, though. You don't really need commanding awe in a raid setting imo, and swelling winds is probably not all that great either.

I really wish when you respec, they would give you an hour or so before you were tied down to it... I really do want to try the different variations. Unfortunately I raid in vigilance, pvp in focus and hybrid. I reach that 50k way too fast...

This has been pretty helpful so far.

So you dont want the extra 15% DR when FD is active? thats a very nice buff when there is raid damage going out, which happens a lot.

i personally run a 4/32/5 spec which i love for its PVP/PVE balance.

As far as bunny leaping. not useful at all. downtime for DPS is not a good thing. You should be swimming in so much focus that a free BS isnt important. Then again, i dont use the rotation listed here.
Raif
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Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
08.08.2012 , 09:18 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Karasuko View Post
Pretty fair guide but just a few questions.
-Why have blade storm so high up your priority list? costs alot of force and its bleed is the weakest of all 3.
-Force sweep isn't part of your basic rotation? Its free and is good for GCD filling while waiting for something else to come off CD.
-Same goes for Force push,Saber throw except the generate alot of focus .
-Bunny hopping. I do this a fair bit with open GCD's. G Leap one person (healer preferably) then F leap straight back in.
Hi there interesting questions. At this point people are developing all kinds of ways to play and there probably is not wide consensus about what is best. So your questions get me thinking about different possibilities, i will answer them from my point of view and see if i can provide a rational but it is as likly that i will learn something as you in the process.

Leaping out and leaping in is a good move no question. Leaping out gives a good debuff to the person you are leaping to and lowers their threat (so better your RDPS friend than the heals) and leaping back in generates good focus and gives you a 20% damage debuff and immunity, if you spec it, which i do at the moment. It also this move costs 2 (more likly 3) global cool downs so interms of producing maximum DPS, the role of a raid DPS class, you have to look at those 2 global cooldowns and consider what else you might do with them. Those two gcds dont generate any DPS if you use them that way, so for this reason the move you describe strikes me as situational. I can think of some fights where avoiding aoe damage makes leaping out a great option, it saves the healers from working hard and on the return in generate focus however if you do not need to get out for some reason you are compromising your DPS to do it, as i have said previously there are more time efficent ways of generating focus and I don't find focus generation the main restriction to DPS so its not a problem i am trying to solve.

Force Push noramlly pisses people off in raids - its a good pvp or solo tactic.

Saber throw is great especially with the 4 peace set bonus its better than sunder for generating DPS and Focus. when it pops use it in preference to sunder if you have the 4 peace bonus.

Force sweep is free, however it is not high damage like MS and it generates just 1 focus unlike sunder. I dont find i ever have everything on cool down so i dont use it unless i want to aoe. if you think about the 3 main abilities that generate bleeds PB OS & BS they all have 9 second cooldowns so use them and MS when they pop, use abilities that generate focus in between so you can use the big abilities when they come off cool down. your organising your moves around maximising the use of your big damage abilities in reagrds to time and focus there are no fillers.

Regarding Blade Storm: many people use the priority SUNDER - PB - OS SUNDER (MS / BS) SUNDER - STRIKE PB etc. Hitting MS if it procs and using BS if it dosent. This is very good i used it for a long time no question it works well it creates 2x30% chances to proc MS and if you dont proc MS you get a BS that crits - your bleeds are up a lot.

I have been trialing SUNDER - OS - BS SUNDER (MS / PB) SUNDER - STRIKE OS. I think this is a little better for a couple of reasons. BS and OS have 6 second bleeds and PB has a 12 second bleed so you dont need to use PB so often. PB hits for about half the initial damage that BS does (1000 or 2000 with crit vs 3000k every time); PB has a 12 second bleed so using it again before your 12 seconds are up is sub optimal because of the poor initial damage. If MS does not proc when you hit OS you are going to hit PB anyway so nothing lost re MS or using BS first; however if you hit PB and MS procs you can go straght to it and avoid the extra sunder and a strike this saves a gcd or two from time to time. So there are various advantages. In my dummy tests it is better but not by a huge amount - best thing is to try different ways and test them yourself.

BS and OS are both 4 focus, PB is 5 so actually the most expensive ability has the major limitations to work around re length of bleed and poor initial damage - if you let the bleed go for 12 seconds then it produces the most DPS (and the best sort of DPS i.e. passive DPS that happens while you do other stuff) but if you clip it short using it again before 12 sec are up then its not close to OS or BS in DPS output.

Lyrik

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
08.14.2012 , 03:51 PM | #18
Guide updated

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
08.15.2012 , 02:20 PM | #19
If you are using Shien stance, Force Sweep is a focus generator, because it ordinarily costs focus but with the Vigilence skill tree you can make Force Sweep a free skill, we still get the focus refund, which makes it a focus generator.

The primary issue with using Force Sweep is the high potential of disrupting ccs, it is generally a good idea to not get into the habit of using Force Sweep at every opportunity, cause while it is useful in some fights, you can get your entire party killed in other situations.

Cyclone slash is good at dealing with a swarm of trash monsters, but not all that useful in a boss fight.

People use bladestorm a lot because of the near guarentee critical after Overhead slash and Plasmabrand, and there are some critters that take next to no damage from Overhead that get pounded into the ground with plasmabrand and blade storm.

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
08.15.2012 , 02:53 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
If you are using Shien stance, Force Sweep is a focus generator, because it ordinarily costs focus but with the Vigilence skill tree you can make Force Sweep a free skill, we still get the focus refund, which makes it a focus generator.
Try using in on fleet when you have no focus. You will find that it dose not give you any focus.

Lyrik