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Gear: Pvp Vs Pve


SintheSinthe's Avatar


SintheSinthe
09.03.2012 , 09:42 PM | #41
Speaking as someone who wanders around in full BM gear, I do just fine on SM FP's (except LI, which I know I'm not geared for, and thus don't queue for). I do relatively well in SM KP and EV with my guildies, or in a queue group that can actually work as a team. Hell, I've even seen a person or two (literally, one or two - most others fail spectacularly) do well in WZ's in decent PVE gear, even with almost constant gear snobbing (no wonder we lost. How do you fight and type at the same time?). From my experience, PVP in PVE gear is much more difficult than PVE in PVP gear.

My point is this: while the importance of gear cannot be denied, it can be overstated. Meanwhile, the importance of an individual's skill is often overlooked (e.g. someone who kicks *** in a WZ with little or no expertise is clearly good at it; anyone without at least some skill would get ground into the *********** pavement). That's not to say that skill is everything, just that there's a balance. I understand that an idiot in Rakata is still an idiot, and a highly-skilled player running HM EC in recruit is probably gonna get their *** kicked (assuming a group would even accept such a player). Nobody gets the gear and skill by magic, we all get it by playing the content.

Lightning_'s Avatar


Lightning_
09.04.2012 , 01:37 AM | #42
PvP in PvE gear is horrible, since Expertise overwrites everything. Full Black Hole player will probably be able to compete with full Recruit, but that's about as far as it gets.

I once forgot to switch gear for PvP and ended up in full Rakata + WH ear/implants (giving a total of ~300 expertise). Replacement gear was in cargo bay. The enemy team was quite bad, but I still felt like shooting from a water gun. In the end I did manage to scrap some mediocre total damage, but only because of that 300 expertise remaining.

So the thing is that PvP gear for PvE play is about 1 to 1.5 tiers down on corresponding PvE gear, while vice versa it's all 3 tiers down.

Manwolfe's Avatar


Manwolfe
09.04.2012 , 07:46 AM | #43
I suspect that the intent is just different in PVE vs PVP.

In PVP you are, in fact competing against other players. The entry Recruit gear is there so new PVPers are not completely blown away, but still at a substantial disadvantage. Gear progression is, in fact a major goal of the PVPer. It makes the player better.

In PVE the goal is to accomplish the objective. Having a team member gimped totally out for a period hurts everyone and is good for NO ONE trying to accomplish the mission. It makes no sense to have a stat like "expertise" in a PVE situation. I mean, who wants to see someone going out with them on an Op completely unable to stay alive?

In contrast, in PVP your goal is man versus man. (there are objectives in WZ's so there is a team aspect)

Just a thought.
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AngusFTW's Avatar


AngusFTW
09.04.2012 , 08:09 AM | #44
Honestly for me as a watchman senty who does a fair bit of BOTH pve and pvp, full optimised wh can do all the pve content in the game as a dps if you know your class, you do lose 150-200 or so dps on the dummy over near full optimised bh/campaign though so if you have both obviously use the bh-campaign... but when i accidently parsed on the dummy in my pvp gear i just thought i was being sloppy in my rotation cause it was late at night.. and the numbers werent so low that you'd think wearing it would cause enrages or anything. (and yes i know this will differ for other classes, tanks etc)

PVE gear in pvp is just a no go as expertise is too important in the current climate

I'm not saying "go out and do pve in pvp gear" but people that go crazy over people doing faceroll hm fps in bm gear need to get a grip it is more then enough.. heck i and many others did those in champion gear back in the day with no issues O.o
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RKLimes's Avatar


RKLimes
09.04.2012 , 01:01 PM | #45
The PvP gear needs to be further differentiated from PvE usefulness. Expertise in PvP already has the effect of power in PvE. (among other things)

1st, remove all power from PvP gear and increase Expertise by the amount removed.
2nd, make another PvP stat that would incorporate crit and surge, then remove those stats from PvP gear. (Call it something like Devastation.)
3rd, watch as PvP gear is no longer useful in PvE.
4th, provide a simple and convenient way to swap between gear sets without having to store all the items in our bags.
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ReMcDomhnall's Avatar


ReMcDomhnall
09.10.2012 , 02:26 AM | #46
There is one point that is overlooked in this whole discussion that makes PvP different from PvE....That is the second P...the players...Mobs in a PvE raid do not look Darth Iamalukkesfader and say that idiot is PvP gear, lets target him. However, people who PvP do. Moderately skilled to advanced PvPers look for people who are in the wrong gear or weaker gear and cut them first...kind of like letting the tank deal with the boss for a minute while you clean up some adds...If you are DPS, this is an easy way to get your total kill, total damage, and solo kill medals in a hurry.
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scullzomben's Avatar


scullzomben
09.10.2012 , 05:51 AM | #47
Heh, would still LOVE to see a reverse effect on Expertise for PvE. The more expertise you have, the less damage you do to bosses, and the more damage you take from them please.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
09.10.2012 , 10:07 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Lightning_ View Post
PvP in PvE gear is horrible, since Expertise overwrites everything. Full Black Hole player will probably be able to compete with full Recruit, but that's about as far as it gets.
One of my guildies has a bit of an epeen issue when I tell him that I can run dailies faster and more efficiently in my 31/0/10 Shadow tank spec than he can in his 23/1/17 hybrid spec. His "solution" was to challenge me to a duel, which I simply had to facepalm at, not only because PvP and PvE are completely different skillsets but also because his full augmented War Hero gear provides a massive benefit that most PvPers are completely oblivious thanks to it's omnipresence in PvP. His claim was that his 23% bonus damage and DR from Expertise would be overwritten by the fact that he had 18k hp and I had 23k. I had to show him the math that his Expertise completely reversed the functional hp values (dealing .77 damage to someone with 18k hp is like hitting someone for full damage with 23k hp and getting hit for 1.23 damage is like having your hp reduced from 23k to 18k).

Expertise cancels out Expertise and most PvPers fight other players in similar levels of Expertise so most PvPers don't realize exactly how massively powerful Expertise is (reducing damage taken *and* increasing damage dealt). Unless there is a massive skill and gear difference (re: a player in full Recruit gear taking on a more skilled player in full Campaign), the PvP geared character is going to deliver a sound thrashing to the PvE geared character purely due to the advantages of Expertise. Of course, in a PvE situation, the fact that Expertise directly draws itemization from every other stat (Expertise is not simply "bonus" itemization added to PvP gear; PvP gear has lower primary stats, Endurance, and secondary stats compared to similarly geared PvE gear; if you don't believe me, have you ever compared the hp/mitigation/damage stats on a full PvP char v. a full PvE char?) is going to mean that, unless you have a similar situation concerning skill and gear, the PvE character is going to be *way* more useful in PvE situations.

In general, the best comparison I've seen concerning PvP and PvE gear is that, in general, PvE gear is worthless in PvP and, in PvE, PvP gear is equal to PvE gear of, roughly, 10 lower rating (so WH is roughly commensurate with Columi) with the exception of weapons and DPS/healing offhands (since most of the value for a weapon or DPS/healing offhand is derived from weapon damage and Force/Tech power which happens to be derived from rating). PvP weapons and DPS/healing offhands are worth only a few rating less than PvE gear with the same rating (PvP Shields are worth less because PvE tanks are more dependent upon the secondary stats that are reduced by Expertise). As such, if you're packing top tier PvP gear, you're prepped to do pretty much everything except for stuff that requires full Rakata (HM EC and NiM KP/EV).
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
09.10.2012 , 02:21 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
...

In general, the best comparison I've seen concerning PvP and PvE gear is that, in general, PvE gear is worthless in PvP and, in PvE, PvP gear is equal to PvE gear of, roughly, 10 lower rating (so WH is roughly commensurate with Columi) with the exception of weapons and DPS/healing offhands (since most of the value for a weapon or DPS/healing offhand is derived from weapon damage and Force/Tech power which happens to be derived from rating).

...
I agree with the 10 lower rating. My guild has brought some of our PvP players into Ops who were interested, and the WH players have done well in HM EV and HM KP, even if it was their first op ever. And since those ops are tuned for Columi gear and drop Rakata, I would say that WH is as good as a Columi set.

Saying that PvE gear is worthless in PvP is not exactly true, however. Columi maybe, but if you have an optimized/augmented Rakata/BH mix (and no Battlemaster available), your PvE set will be better than Recruit gear.

I found this out the hard way when I went from endgame PvE to PvP and was being facerolled wearing Recruit but was able to hold my own wearing the PvE gear I run HMEC with. It was only when I started getting Battlemaster gear that I noticed an improvement over my PvE stuff.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
09.10.2012 , 02:39 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Saying that PvE gear is worthless in PvP is not exactly true, however. Columi maybe, but if you have an optimized/augmented Rakata/BH mix (and no Battlemaster available), your PvE set will be better than Recruit gear.
I'd actually be kind of curious to compare the math on this. Would the additional expertise in the Recruit gear offset the lower hp and damage compared to full Rakata? Honestly, I would think that, thanks to the massive benefits of Expertise (since it adds to both your offensive and defensive capabilities), it would overcome even Rakata gear difference (it's only a difference of 12-16 gear rating), but I'd be curious to see the math concerning it.
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