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Bioware needs to seriously address Class Balance Issues

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Bioware needs to seriously address Class Balance Issues

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
08.03.2012 , 03:59 PM | #41
Buffing 7 classes is the same as nerfing the class that didn't get buffed. In the end buff/nerf doesn't really matter, it's whatever it takes to get balance with the least amount of effort. If you agree that PT/Marauder are generally overpowered as DPS, your option is either nerf these 2 types or bring the other 10+ variants of DPS (counting specs) on par. It's almost certainly easier to nerf 2 classes than bring 10+ variants up to par.

Also, there's only so many niche roles you can fit. Jugg and Assassin can fill in as some kind of DPS/tank combo and you'll see them in rated WZ. They might be OPed or not, no one can say for sure, but you definitely have reason to include one on your team, so you know at least viable. But they fill in pretty specialized roles as a result of their skillset. Most classes can never do that. An Arsenal Merc isn't going to invent himself as a backup healer that can shoot Tracer Missiles. His role is DPS and he has to measure up to the top DPS classes or you wouldn't want one on your team. Assuming we're not seeing classes completely redesigned, there just isn't enough utility to go around for people to reinvent themselves as "DPS with utility' or "Healer with utilty' compared to the top performing guy of that classification.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
08.06.2012 , 01:30 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Buffing 7 classes is the same as nerfing the class that didn't get buffed. In the end buff/nerf doesn't really matter, it's whatever it takes to get balance with the least amount of effort. If you agree that PT/Marauder are generally overpowered as DPS, your option is either nerf these 2 types or bring the other 10+ variants of DPS (counting specs) on par. It's almost certainly easier to nerf 2 classes than bring 10+ variants up to par.

Buffing 7 classes isn't nerfing the 1 that didn't get nerfed in a lot of ways. For one rather than ticking off all the people that play a class that gets nerfed, you make all the people who play the other classes pretty pleased, which can do wonders for customer satisfaction which is not to be sneezed at from a development perspective. Poi

Whatever takes balance with the least amount of effort is most certainly right though, but again we have to define what balance is. If one class has really high DPS is it easier to nerf them or just give everyone better defensive cooldowns (probably without really considering the laws of unintended consequences, as I feel BW has often done in the past).

Also there are two aspects to this game. You could probably nerf Pyro PT DPS without significantly hurting the PVE side of the game since most vanguards I know don't go assault DPS to ops (all the PVP Pyro PTs would throw a royal fit if the nerfs were really severe though). Sents/Maras are also highly desired in OPs though and both Carnage/Combat and Watchman/Annihilation trees see a lot of action in both. Plus the Pyro tree itself is relatively simple so the question is where exactly you're going to apply the nerfs.

They might also decide that the class itself is right about where they want it and everyone else is underperforming and buff them (they didn't nerf Sage/Commando healing to bring them down to operative/scoundrel level. They nerfed them from what they surmised was overperformance while buffing Scoundrel/Operative healing).

Point is that there seem to be more considerations for class balance beyond what takes the least effort since doing nothing is always the easiest option (and oddly enough, given all the nostalgia people have for pre 1.2 PVP, it seems they really would have been better off doing nothing).

Quote:
Also, there's only so many niche roles you can fit. Jugg and Assassin can fill in as some kind of DPS/tank combo and you'll see them in rated WZ. They might be OPed or not, no one can say for sure, but you definitely have reason to include one on your team, so you know at least viable. But they fill in pretty specialized roles as a result of their skillset. Most classes can never do that. An Arsenal Merc isn't going to invent himself as a backup healer that can shoot Tracer Missiles. His role is DPS and he has to measure up to the top DPS classes or you wouldn't want one on your team. Assuming we're not seeing classes completely redesigned, there just isn't enough utility to go around for people to reinvent themselves as "DPS with utility' or "Healer with utilty' compared to the top performing guy of that classification
The tank example actually shows that both classes can provide Niche roles in completely different ways. You are not bringing an Assassin instead of a Jugg if what you want is a great ball carrier, but you will if you want someone who can reliably apply a lot of pressure to an off node.

They feel specialized roles (that go beyond simply Tank/DPS combo) because of their skillsets, but I feel it would be more accurate to say that because of their skillsets they are able to perform specialized roles.

"DPS with utility" manifests itself in as many ways as there are extra skills in the game. A DPS Shadow and a DPS Vanguard are both DPS with utility, but that utility is way different between the two classes. Adding extra skills that don't affect the PVE game much at all but provide other classes with different kinds of utility is arguably much simpler, than figuring out how to nerf PTs/Maras without absolutely crippling them.

According to them all the DPS classes have about the same DPS (within a 5% margin, which I have to assume means the difference between the best and worst is 5%). You may choose to believe that or not, but if we concede them this it still doesn't change the fact that if someone can do the same damage (and do it easier) while also being able to provide something else, they'll be taken over a class that can only DPS (or, more likely, if they really can't provide that something extra they're supposed to be able to do). The Arsenal Merc can't make himself a DPS who can backup heal because the baseline heals aren't all that powerful and get very expensive, so that extra bit he's supposed to be able to provide he really can't.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Mularky's Avatar


Mularky
08.07.2012 , 03:59 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by PowerReaper View Post
More QQING L2P
Wait its PowerReaper everyone has to stop replying to this thread or else...... He will spam us with L2P posts as for his OP sent will kill us.

Brool's Avatar


Brool
08.07.2012 , 04:00 PM | #44
I saw a trooper finish 3rd in damage total numbers today, bioware needs to nerf troopers.
Phalanx
The Harbinger
We are playing a game of rock paper scissors.
Quit asking to nerf rock when you are obviously playing scissors.

Tyrias's Avatar


Tyrias
08.29.2012 , 11:43 AM | #45
This is only a brief point, cause I'm in the middle of cooking dinner.

Totally agree. I'd love to know what I am "supposed" to be doing well and badly on my class, as opposed to what I "think" I'm supposed to be doing.

I was thinking though, you know what would be a good, non-DPS way to balance out the frequently quoted "underpowered" classes vs the supposed "Overpowered ones".

Give them buff removal tools on a 15-20s cooldown. If the Commando and Sage, for example, had tools that stripped 1 or 2 self buffs from a target, that would give them both something extra and unique (Well, unique-ish if they both get that effect), and start providing counters the situations people call "Over powered". Most of these situations revolve around self buffs.

Strip a Pyro Powertech of they Combustible Gas Cylinder and suddenly they're not so irritating. Strip a marauder of one of his Defensive Cooldowns and he's not so invulnerable. It would actually decrease the "Faceroll-ability" of the stronger classes, because you'd have to pay attention to your buffs and re-apply them sometimes. There shouldn't be a re-apply lockout (although I think Cooldowns on skills should still apply) so that an on-the-ball class can reactivate a stance/ammo selection easily.

Anyway, back to dinner.
"If you've got a problem, stick a worm in it".

Sathid's Avatar


Sathid
08.29.2012 , 12:36 PM | #46
Good discussion,also has anyone taken the time to do a spreadsheet with damage of classes for say a month,i know there is many variables but id wager one could get a rough idea regardless,i know what the outcome would be anyhow,it would be interesting .