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Bioware needs to seriously address Class Balance Issues

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Bioware needs to seriously address Class Balance Issues

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
08.01.2012 , 01:35 PM | #11
Quote:
I'm going to stop you right there, because I disagree. At the heart of the complaint is the feeling of "I couldn't do anything to stop that." Obviously it takes some amount of class knowledge (both yours and the attacker's) to spot what could have been done better, so it's often a L2P issue, but when you go over the fight, you look at what killed you, what didn't work against the other guy and you just go "I couldn't have done anything else. There's no answer to that." That is OverPowered in the proper sense of the term, not the L2P QQ meaning.

First off Daiyukie, let me say thank you for contributing intelligently to discussion (as well as everyone else but Daiyukis is the first one that I quoted so I'll focus on him specifically). Barring an actual dev stepping in and giving us something to chew on if the community can at least have an honest civil discussion about balance beyond simple "nerf <class>" threads then that is the second best possible outcome of a thread like this.

Secondly, I would say that that was my point exactly. If the question is "Could I have done anything to stop that?" and the honest answer at the end of the day, after all L2P issues are settled, is no, then that doesn't necessarily mean the class that did that to you is overpowered or that you're underpowered.

Let me give an example. Lets say in voidstar I immediately go right and everyone else on my team goes left because that's where the zerg goes. There are multiple classes, foremost among them Scoundrel/Operative and Shadow/Assassin, who can stealth over and either beat me straight up in a 1v1 or mez me and solo cap. Shadows specced into instant Force Lift can mez me, wait for me to break the CC and then instant force lift me, and if things are hairy enough on the other side my team can't get over to help in time, but regardless there's nothing I can do in that situation.

Now maybe the L2P issue here, definitely the L2P lesson I took from this, is that commandos just shouldn't be solo guarding nodes, and if the balance is such that some classes are supposed to be good in this kind of capacity and others aren't then no one is OP. I was engaged by a class in an area where they excel while playing a class that is not equipped in that area and is arguably very weak and that is ok, no one is OP in that situation. On the other hand if they're balancing things so classes should be relatively equal solo guarding objectives (I would say this is not the case but lets entertain the notion for purposes of discussion) then clearly the Commando in this situation is vastly UP, and the scoundrel/shadow is OP.

Now if the question instead changes "is there anything ANYONE on my team could have done" and the answer is still no, then I begin to think such a class is OP. If I had had 2 to 3 people with me and a single stealther was still reasonably assured of solo capping the node, and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it, then I would personally start to consider such a class unbalanced.

"There is no answer to that" is a possible indicator of being overpowered, but only if the possible answers include anything you're team could have done differently (well, reasonably done differently. Being prescient is not something I expect from even the best players).

Quote:
I underlined three key points that stood out, first being that Bioware was too ambitious with the classes. As much as people say they want to move away from the trinity of DPS/Tank/Heals, when they're given that, they cry foul and complain. Every class is so unique and brings something different to the table that people choose DPS, see another DPS and cry that they can't do what that other guy is doing. That's how it's DESIGNED and for some reason people don't like that. They do want to have it all, as the second underline states. That's what people want and what they don't receive, so they cry.
This is a fair point, and I agree for the most part. In this context I might consider a class overpowered if they CAN do it all, and a class underpowered if they bring absolutely nothing to the table except middle of the road damage (having no utility but the absolute best damage by a large margin would still be fine in my opinion). Using my example again I don't mind that scoundrels and shadows can do what they did to me. It annoys me to be on the receiving end, but it doesn't strike me as unbalanced, and I actually love the tactical flexibility having someone on your team with that capability brings. Those classes are uniquely suited for that situation, and I know that they tend to flag behind in other situations. If those classes were also the sturdiest, the best damage in pretty much any situation, AND still had that great capability then we might start to talk unbalanced. If my class is not good solo, but can work well in a team setting to where a commando+teammate is much better than teammate+another class, then the fact that I "play well with others" balances out my abyssmal solo capabilities. I'm not saying that this is the case. I personally believe that even with a good team behind you, commando only ever becomes almost viable, and is I think one of the reasons the class is underpowered, but that's another discussion for another thread since I'm pretty sure my opinions on this matter are well known by now.

It's on this issue that I really want BW to chime in more than any other. I'm fine that not all classes are created equal in all situations. I'm fine if each happens to excel in a certain situation over the other ACs and if balance is approached from that perspective because I honestly think the game becomes more interesting. Chess is more interesting than checkers because there are different pieces that do different things, whereas in checkers every piece does the same thing (I realize this isn't the best analogy since technically queen is OP, but every analogy breaks down eventually. Use it for what it is). But I want BW to state plainly and for the record what their vision for each class, and while I'm talking crazy I'll shoot for the moon and say each SPEC, is. If they want to say "well we really don't see Gunnery as a PVP spec. We designed it that way on purpose". Then that's fine. If they want to say "well we really don't envision Commando as a DPS in PVP at all, more of a PVE DPS spec. We feel their best contribution in PVP is as healers" then I'll be disappointed, but at least then I can swallow the "working as intended" line. Some people will manage to break the mold anyway and I'm not saying that how BW envisions things is a precisely how everyone should play their class/spec, but at least if I know what their vision is I can suggest things that make my class more balanced for that envisioned role rather than suggestions that are completely against their vision for the class.

As an example if I believed that they wanted Gunnery to be a viable ranged DPS spec in PVP that had range and damage but low mobility I wouldn't suggest to them that they make all our casts instant. I would suggest that they give us a way to not be interrupted or keep enemies at range. If I feel they DO want us to be mobile, I'd suggest they make our casts instant.

My point is that while some people, perhaps most people, are going to want it all, some of us can and will accept that we can't have it all, but maybe we're asking for the wrong changes because we simply don't know what we're supposed to be doing, and as you said that's a communication issue.

Quote:
For the third underline, this is communication. All Bioware ever says is some vague stuff about metrics. TALK TO US, tell us specifically what goal they're meant to hit and where each class is currently standing. They've said before that Sage/Sorc need to L2P, Commando DPS is designed to be immobile as tradeoff for the great damage they do, that Operatives aren't supposed to stunlock people from 100% to 0% and that Infiltration Shadows are hit-and-run and shouldn't be taking damage. This is all by design, but there's not enough of that kind of specific "Look, this is what the class is envisioned, this is what this spec gives you the option for, if you don't like it, there's this spec or this other class." They need a class guide/description that's not all fluff and has actual in-game relevance, preferably replacing the text that you get when you choose your AC.
Actually this says everything I said but much more eloquently. Exactly this Bioware. Talk to us. Tell us what your vision is. Communicate that ingame to people choosing ACs so they don't choose a class thinking it's one thing when it's really another thing. Knowing what a class is supposed to be bad at is just as important as knowing what they're supposed to be good at.

Quote:
That is my personal OP winning, but point is the "matrix" as Bioware calls it need to be deifned and made clear, If you roll sorc you gone be "squishy", but you got ways to survive, jugs can take dmg and do dmg, but not the best etc. etc
I agree entirely. Once we have a clear definition of what they want, then we can reasonably talk about what's OP.

Quote:
Your posts are always beautifully and eloquently written. You are no fool. However I have either greatly misinterpreted what you have written, or I have missed the point., in that it seems very clear to me what each class should be doing. I have never understood what people want as balance.

In my opinion there should not be balance. If there is total balance then it means that every tanking class, for example, should have exactly the same abilities and exactly the same equipment. This would be rubbish in my opinion. There is no other way to achieve balance. Your skill as a player will always outweigh the limitations of your class. In my opinion each class should retain its strengths and limitations.
First off, thank you. Second of all I think you grasp my point for the most part. I agree we shouldn't all be the exact same in respective roles. I used the example of tanks because each is different and each brings something different and somewhat unique to the table and that is what I consider balance.

Let me make the definition of balance as "all classes are able to contribute equally to a team's victory" and then let me better define what I actually mean because that statement is almost void of relevance in practice for any game that isn't checkers.

Obviously I don't mean that every class should be able to do the same thing, but then "contribute equally" becomes very nebulous because how do you quantify stealth vs being able to leap from friend to foe (mobility) vs <insert different ability to contribute from other classes>? You can't really quantify it, so equality stops having a precise meaning and has more of a "I know it when I see it" kinda meaning.

Lets look at football. You have a team of 11 guys. None of them is doing what the other 10 are doing. Each position is contributing in a different way and not all of those ways are glamorous. Yet all of them are contributing in a very meaningful way. The best argument for equality in this situation is that if the team suddenly lost someone who they just replaced with another position, for example if you lost a Linesman and replaced him with a second QB, then the team ultimately suffers for it.

There's a thread open asking for a reason to bring a Commando DPS to rated play.

The question needs to asked and answered for every class. Why should I bring <class> to rated play? All of those answers should not be the same. None of those answers should be "you shouldn't".

edit:

Quote:
How bout simply adding the Marauder's Leaps to the list of things that are affected by resolve? Its this simple, a marauder is faced down by 5 angry, charging opponenets.

Marauder leaps to healer, AOE flashbang, 5 people are stunned for 9 seconds while the marauder runs away.
Response: 3 of the 5 pop their CC break and prepare to fight.

Marauder number 2 leaps in, repeats marauder 1's tactic.

5 people stunned for 9-18 seconds depending on if they popped a CC break. the 2 marauders then start picking off the weakest to strongest until they are all dead. anyone who tries to run gets doubled leaped, stunning them for 2 seconds per leap. 5 people were CC'ed and killed with minimal resistance.

Does anyone else see anything wrong with that scenario??

For gods sake put the leap on the damn resolve system. OR wait for GW2 to steal your pvp player base. Whatever you do, if you do nothing, all that money your counting instead of doing your damn jobs will get smaller in the coming months.
The point of this thread is that nothing is that simple. Also there are several threads specifically discussing Marauder. Despite my numerous references to commando, this thread is more about the meta.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

TyrellJonez's Avatar


TyrellJonez
08.01.2012 , 04:57 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Derian View Post
1) The scenario you described is ridiculous. 2) if you make roots add to resolve, than you are going to cry a lot harder about Marauders, when they can't be rooted.

And for god's sake Awe is NOT a Stun it breaks on damage.
The scenario i describe is NOT rediculous. It happens on a regular basis. If you refuse to acknowledge it then thats your perogative. Ignorance is bliss. But don't say it doesn't happen. If you haven't done it then your a CRAPPY marauder.

If its just a root, why can't we attack or cast? Can u say the power is not working as intended or do you just want to defend an OP class?

Stun=something that prevents you from taking any action. AWE stuns people. doesn't matter if it breaks on damage but i suppose that doesn't matter. As long as u can CC a group of players while you beat the weakest one into submission one after the other i bet your happy.

Defending your class is fine, but don't pretend its not in balance with the other classes. No one is saying nerf your damage, just your UNCOUNTERABLE EFFIN ABILITY TO CC MULTIPLE PEOPLE.
If they don't wanna see the hood in me, be satisfied when you see the good in me

EXPORTERS's Avatar


EXPORTERS
08.01.2012 , 05:27 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrellJonez View Post
The scenario i describe is NOT rediculous. It happens on a regular basis. If you refuse to acknowledge it then thats your perogative. Ignorance is bliss. But don't say it doesn't happen. If you haven't done it then your a CRAPPY marauder.

If its just a root, why can't we attack or cast? Can u say the power is not working as intended or do you just want to defend an OP class?

Stun=something that prevents you from taking any action. AWE stuns people. doesn't matter if it breaks on damage but i suppose that doesn't matter. As long as u can CC a group of players while you beat the weakest one into submission one after the other i bet your happy.

Defending your class is fine, but don't pretend its not in balance with the other classes. No one is saying nerf your damage, just your UNCOUNTERABLE EFFIN ABILITY TO CC MULTIPLE PEOPLE.
I totally agree withwhat he is saying. The AOE ability stun was designed for PVE mobs and not really intended for PVP purposes. BW couldn't implement balance in this situation with this ability, so they left as is.
Yes, this is a frustrating ability, especially in Voidstar where people are spawning to stop the opposite team from capping the doors and being hit with this ability on stopping 5 people, then immediately getting hit with another stun.
Personally, I think every class should have this ability since it doesn't serve a purpose in PVP as to the benefit usage in PVE.

Brool's Avatar


Brool
08.01.2012 , 06:11 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Let me give an example. Lets say in voidstar I immediately go right and everyone else on my team goes left because that's where the zerg goes. There are multiple classes, foremost among them Scoundrel/Operative and Shadow/Assassin, who can stealth over and either beat me straight up in a 1v1 or mez me and solo cap. Shadows specced into instant Force Lift can mez me, wait for me to break the CC and then instant force lift me, and if things are hairy enough on the other side my team can't get over to help in time, but regardless there's nothing I can do in that situation..
Dont ever ever ever ever ever waste your cc break in that situation, they are just waiting for you to use it. Hold out and profit.
Phalanx
The Harbinger
We are playing a game of rock paper scissors.
Quit asking to nerf rock when you are obviously playing scissors.

Derian's Avatar


Derian
08.01.2012 , 06:14 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrellJonez View Post
The scenario i describe is NOT rediculous. It happens on a regular basis. If you refuse to acknowledge it then thats your perogative. Ignorance is bliss. But don't say it doesn't happen. If you haven't done it then your a CRAPPY marauder.

If its just a root, why can't we attack or cast? Can u say the power is not working as intended or do you just want to defend an OP class?

Stun=something that prevents you from taking any action. AWE stuns people. doesn't matter if it breaks on damage but i suppose that doesn't matter. As long as u can CC a group of players while you beat the weakest one into submission one after the other i bet your happy.

Defending your class is fine, but don't pretend its not in balance with the other classes. No one is saying nerf your damage, just your UNCOUNTERABLE EFFIN ABILITY TO CC MULTIPLE PEOPLE.
If you think force leap applies a stun, then you re a crappy player.

Awe is not a stun, a stun is something that prevents a player from action, and it doesn't break on damage. Awe is a mezz/daze it breaks on damage. Don't project your desire to be OP on me, I want balance just like everyone else. I play multiple classes I'm not "defending" anything. I'm just playing a game to have fun. I'm not personally invested in the class I play. I am invested however in educating people such as yourself that have no clue.
Synion
Shards of Alderaan/Republic Justice

Jedi Sentinel-Watchman
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Derian's Avatar


Derian
08.01.2012 , 06:17 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by EXPORTERS View Post
I totally agree withwhat he is saying. The AOE ability stun was designed for PVE mobs and not really intended for PVP purposes. BW couldn't implement balance in this situation with this ability, so they left as is.
Yes, this is a frustrating ability, especially in Voidstar where people are spawning to stop the opposite team from capping the doors and being hit with this ability on stopping 5 people, then immediately getting hit with another stun.
Personally, I think every class should have this ability since it doesn't serve a purpose in PVP as to the benefit usage in PVE.
Smugglers/IA have an aoe daze, except their's doesn't require that they are in the middle of everyone to use it.

If you are having issues with CC I suggest you use your CC break more responsibly.
Synion
Shards of Alderaan/Republic Justice

Jedi Sentinel-Watchman
Jedi Conqueror

TheRampage's Avatar


TheRampage
08.01.2012 , 06:21 PM | #17
Something needs to be changed fast. Im full geared WH tank, all augments, all datacrons. When 2 dps target me (lets say they have wh gear as well) I go down in less then 10 sec. no matter my cd, they don't do a thing, same as I didn't use them.

I saty longer alive on my sentinel (same gear).

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
08.01.2012 , 06:32 PM | #18
Granted that ow-pvp isnt big in this game and that BW seemingly has done everything in its' power to keep the two factions apart but we can't ignore that it still is an option. Based on the latter I'd say that classes should be balanced around 1 vs 1, it is a much easier way of balancing than looking at roles in warzones. Roles in warzones only apply to coordinated teams and the failure that is rateds manifests that there arent many of those.

PowerReaper's Avatar


PowerReaper
08.01.2012 , 06:45 PM | #19
More QQING L2P
Prophecy Of The Five
Warlord »schaton - 55 Sith Juggernaut
Elite Warlord Christine - 55 Jedi Sentinel

TyrellJonez's Avatar


TyrellJonez
08.01.2012 , 07:20 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Derian View Post
If you think force leap applies a stun, then you re a crappy player.

Awe is not a stun, a stun is something that prevents a player from action, and it doesn't break on damage. Awe is a mezz/daze it breaks on damage. Don't project your desire to be OP on me, I want balance just like everyone else. I play multiple classes I'm not "defending" anything. I'm just playing a game to have fun. I'm not personally invested in the class I play. I am invested however in educating people such as yourself that have no clue.
It does apply a stun since you can't take any action while they leap to you. classified or not.

YOUR deffinition is different because you like that YOU can do it. If i wanted to be OP i'd roll a marauder and pretend Awe isn't overpowered for pvp.

Dude one to one, your only defending it because A.) you use it and hate to have to re-roll to the next FOTM. B.) you think i'm your friend because i'm actually speaking to you. (btw i'm not, and i can smell a troll)

Back on topic, without a class balance BEFORE the F2P goes live, people may come back, but would you stay if everything that drove you away is still there?

Fix the Marauder leap. Put it on resolve.
If they don't wanna see the hood in me, be satisfied when you see the good in me