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[Guide] The Watchmen and Combat PvE basics

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Jedi Knight > Sentinel
[Guide] The Watchmen and Combat PvE basics

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
11.10.2012 , 02:11 PM | #81
If one of my sentinels stacked crit on the basis that it made his personal burn heals tick slightly more often, I'd kick him from the raid group.

As a healer, your burn heals mean nothing to me in serious op encounters. Maximise your DPS and do your job.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
11.10.2012 , 02:38 PM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
If one of my sentinels stacked crit on the basis that it made his personal burn heals tick slightly more often, I'd kick him from the raid group.

As a healer, your burn heals mean nothing to me in serious op encounters. Maximise your DPS and do your job.
Pretty much this.
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BogyOne's Avatar


BogyOne
11.10.2012 , 05:13 PM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by Atlanis View Post
The point all critics seem to forget, that I do the same DMG as a Wachman stacking the Crit I have more than 250 or so in Power. Maybe that sentinel I had a hard "Fist Fight" about Stats is just bad playing his Class, but in the End the DPS were almost the Same.
If you like to and you'll PM to me your raid buffed stats: Strength, Willpower, Power, Force Power, Critical, Surge and Accuracy Rating I will mince them in Excel and give you theoretical difference between your current setup (so playstyle is not causing any difference) and 30-75 model.

As I see it now, your very high crit causes huge overage above 100% of crit on Zen which could be transformed into damage to have bigger crits at Zen.

Atlanis's Avatar


Atlanis
11.12.2012 , 08:34 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by BogyOne View Post
If you like to and you'll PM to me your raid buffed stats: Strength, Willpower, Power, Force Power, Critical, Surge and Accuracy Rating I will mince them in Excel and give you theoretical difference between your current setup (so playstyle is not causing any difference) and 30-75 model.

As I see it now, your very high crit causes huge overage above 100% of crit on Zen which could be transformed into damage to have bigger crits at Zen.
The Red marked shows your problem, things seem nice in theory or impossible in theory. The Practical Use and the theoretical calculations almost differ everytime. In the End in reality and in Raids I see, that my Crit Stacked Wachman is as good as the "theoretical" best Wachman Spec/Stat resolution.

I tested many specs and stats relation in experimentaly same conditions and found that both Crit and Power Stacked Wachman Specs are viable in a certain Area of Stat Variation of +-50 Points in either of them on Tier 4. As you just work with "Thin Air" and Excel your arguments sound nice and good, but in the End stand on no fundament.

P.S.: Its a general problem in anglo-american thinking and relying on formulas an stringent thoughts of Argumentation an Resolve. The Chaotic Thinking and the practical orientated EXPERIMENTAL testing in actual situations is rather a Phenomena of Central European thinking;-)

P.S.S.: Chaos --> Thats why we rulez
----Enclave @ Jarkai Sword----
Ata'lan Dor'al'ke
"Angry? Have a Jawa...."

Atlanis's Avatar


Atlanis
11.12.2012 , 08:38 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
If one of my sentinels stacked crit on the basis that it made his personal burn heals tick slightly more often, I'd kick him from the raid group.

As a healer, your burn heals mean nothing to me in serious op encounters. Maximise your DPS and do your job.
Make me laugh, I maximised my DPS, still know only a handful of sentinels on my server who do more DPS (oh they got 5-10DPS more thats so important). Crit stacked sentinels do the SAME DPS as the 30/75 (only looking at Melee here). The rule I follow in Crit stacking is have 550 Crot : than have 550 AP (at least) too.

By the way, you are no sentinel so shut your mouth;-)
----Enclave @ Jarkai Sword----
Ata'lan Dor'al'ke
"Angry? Have a Jawa...."

Mr_Fuzzle's Avatar


Mr_Fuzzle
11.12.2012 , 11:55 AM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by Atlanis View Post
P.S.: Its a general problem in anglo-american thinking and relying on formulas an stringent thoughts of Argumentation an Resolve. The Chaotic Thinking and the practical orientated EXPERIMENTAL testing in actual situations is rather a Phenomena of Central European thinking;-)

P.S.S.: Chaos --> Thats why we rulez
Guy, on behalf of rational tolerant people everywhere, I would like to slap you for these absurd statements. That being said, what people are trying to get across to you is not that you shouldn't stack crit necessarily, just that stacking power will theoretically get more dps. To assume that nobody else has tested this experimentally is very illogical and frankly insulting to the rest of this community. Some people do the initial modeling using spreadsheets and formulas, however there have been tests of whether high crit or low crit (164 or 328) gives higher dps. It has also been tested that crit past 328 decreases your overall dps. That is all I have to say on this matter.

BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
11.12.2012 , 12:13 PM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by Atlanis View Post
The Red marked shows your problem, things seem nice in theory or impossible in theory. The Practical Use and the theoretical calculations almost differ everytime. In the End in reality and in Raids I see, that my Crit Stacked Wachman is as good as the "theoretical" best Wachman Spec/Stat resolution.

I tested many specs and stats relation in experimentaly same conditions and found that both Crit and Power Stacked Wachman Specs are viable in a certain Area of Stat Variation of +-50 Points in either of them on Tier 4. As you just work with "Thin Air" and Excel your arguments sound nice and good, but in the End stand on no fundament.

P.S.: Its a general problem in anglo-american thinking and relying on formulas an stringent thoughts of Argumentation an Resolve. The Chaotic Thinking and the practical orientated EXPERIMENTAL testing in actual situations is rather a Phenomena of Central European thinking;-)

P.S.S.: Chaos --> Thats why we rulez
All data I've posted in this thread has come from extensive testing and experimentation by myself or others that have contributed in this thread. I don't care for metrics or equations because I personally don't understand it all. Math hasn't been my forte since middle school.

Crit stacking, as ridiculous as it sounds because the DR on Crit Rating starts to hit it hard after 328, might work for you, and you might out dps other (arguably subpar) sentinels and that's fine. For you. I will not recommend it in my thread.

Also, please keep all ethnic and cultural **** out of my Guide thread. This is not the place for it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Atlanis View Post
Make me laugh, I maximised my DPS, still know only a handful of sentinels on my server who do more DPS (oh they got 5-10DPS more thats so important). Crit stacked sentinels do the SAME DPS as the 30/75 (only looking at Melee here). The rule I follow in Crit stacking is have 550 Crot : than have 550 AP (at least) too.

By the way, you are no sentinel so shut your mouth;-)
Um... Aurojin has been a great contributor to this thread and if you would just read their signature you would know that they actually play a Combat sentinel. Hell, my sentinel isn't even my raiding main anymore because my guild needed another tank when EC hit and I had experience.

Don't be such a *****, and kindly, leave my thread.
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Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
11.12.2012 , 12:17 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by Atlanis View Post
Make me laugh, I maximised my DPS, still know only a handful of sentinels on my server who do more DPS (oh they got 5-10DPS more thats so important). Crit stacked sentinels do the SAME DPS as the 30/75 (only looking at Melee here).
No, they do less DPS. Only a few percent less, but you're still starting down the path of some pretty erroneous reasoning. Why don't you stack some Endurance as well, so that your self-heals tick for more?

Also, you need to research how stats work, because simply stacking to 30/75 is not optimal (don't get me wrong, it's a good benchmark, it's just that for those who are mathematically inclined you can still tweak a bit).

Quote:
By the way, you are no sentinel so shut your mouth;-)
I find your arrogance amusing on two levels. One, because I do play a sentinel (apparently your reading comprehension is a little lacking - look at my signature again). Two, because your primary justification for over-stacking crit is because it increases your self-healing, and you believe your opinion on the matter apparently holds more weight that the player whose job it actually is to heal people. I take back my previous statement: I wouldn't kick you from my raid, I'd just stop healing you, because you clearly know better. Wonder how long you'd survive on Toth and Zorn.

Edit: out of respect to Blzn, who has done excellent work with this thread, I won't be responding to your posts anymore, unless they're constructive.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

arkitip's Avatar


arkitip
11.12.2012 , 04:07 PM | #89
It's just flat out bizarre to be insulting towards theory crafting DPS on a mathematical basis, given the fact that the actual workings of the game are mathematical. There are equations available for each and every topic we've discussed here within the game itself, and the theory crafting people have done is based on the game's own mechanics.

Because of that, I again point toward a lack of understanding the game mechanics. You can stack crit until you're blue in the face, and the fact will still remain that it hits a steeper DR curve in the 300-350 range and each point beyond that has statistically less weight than a point in power.

So you're a DPS class, gearing themselves to do less DPS. Even if it's only by 5%, it's still less. And your rationale for doing all this is to help your healers? If your healers are having trouble keeping DPS alive through the incidental raid damage, you need better healers, not more crit stacked to 500+ sentinels.


The only reason I've bothered to argue this far is because your original post said Blzn didn't have his facts correct. The work that's been done here is the result of Blzn's own work and the revisions that have been made with the input of the rest of the community. Your contribution to this has been a way to do less DPS but increase HPS. Ok, duly noted.

BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
11.17.2012 , 03:25 AM | #90
Moving on from that debacle:

I changed one of my mod suggestions to make more sense and be arguably better and elaborated on using Cauterize for Combat.

I will elaborate on using Master Strike for Watchmen later, with suggestions of how to use it.
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