Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Vígo's Guide to Vanguard Tanking

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Vígo's Guide to Vanguard Tanking

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
08.29.2012 , 06:35 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Raczo_liga View Post
You are correct that no one should PUT points into Accuracy. That being said, every Vanguard is going to get accuracy as one of their stats from end-game gear. Never put any more than that into Accuracy, and if you are lucky enough to find a COMPARABLE level modification piece to replace one with accuracy, definitely use it.
You may want to define "comparable". If you mean "of a similar level", you're gonna be a pretty squishy Rak geared VG tank for a while thanks to all of that redundant accuracy and the relative difficulty/randomness in getting appropriate tank enhs of those levels. If you mean "provides more than the pittance of Abs or Def rating that the Acc Enhs on Rak gear provide" then you'll do fine. This means that, quite often, you'll be using level 50 (re: grade 22) enhancements in place of the level 58ish enhancements that Rak gear is decked out with.

Quote:
The tool tip for Harpoon states that it generates a high amount of threat, therefore a) you are incorrect, or b) the skill is broken. I find that Harpoon does in fact generate just about as much threat as Neural Jolt.
Then you don't know what you're talking about.

Harpoon generates threat equal to roughly 2.5-3k damage worth (which means it generates about as much threat as a non-crit Stockstrike without factoring in Ion Cell). It is a static quantity. The tooltip simply states "generates a high amount of threat" to indicate that, while it doesn't deal damage, it generates threat anyways and, for an attack that deals no damage, that's relatively high threat.

Neural Jolt (and, in fact, all taunts) do not have a set threat generation quantity. They have 2 effects: the first is that they place the taunt debuff on target, which forces the target to attack them for the designated 6 seconds; the second is that it sets your current threat on the target to the amount needed to have the target have aggro on you (keeping in mind that this value is higher if you are at range rather than in melee) even if the target is already attacking you.

To explain, if you use Neural Jolt on a target than has had no threat generated on it yet (re: you use it as an opener) while at range, the Taunt effect will force the target to attack you for 6 seconds and have no other effect since 0 threat times 1.3 (the amount of threat required to gain threat if at range) is still 0. Now, instead, let's assume that you use Neural Jolt at range on a target that has been CCd for the entire fight thus far and, as such, the highest threat on it is from the healer, who has generated 10k threat (healing threat modifier is .5 so this would equate to 20k worth of healing done). Doing so would place your threat at 13k (the amount needed to pull threat off of its current target) regardless of what your previous threat on it was (like say you just used HiB and did 1k damage to generate 2k threat, it would still just set your threat to 13k). If you used Neural Jolt in melee (such as you would likely do after breaking the CC with Storm or a Stockstrike), you would only have your threat set to 11k (since the melee threat requirement is only 1.1 times target's threat). It's also important to note that the threat multiplication benefit applies even if the target is already attacking you: if you use Neural Jolt at range on a target already attacking you that you currently have 50k threat on, your threat will be set to 65k. Something else to consider is that it is *really* hard to be within what the game considers "melee range" to be for the purposes of threat grabbing (rather than the 4m that melee abilities use, it's closer to 1m for threat considerations). As such, virtually any time you taunt, you'll get the 1.3 threat mod unless you're literally inside your target.

In short, Harpoon really does only generate a pittance of threat compared to what you're really capable of generating. It should only ever be used to reposition targets. Neural Jolt (as well as Sonic Round and all other taunts) are not so much threat generators as threat multipliers that, when used, will generate more threat than the rest of your abilities combined over the course of a fight (if you ever want to have a laugh, use only your taunt after the first 10 seconds of a boss fight that doesn't have a tight enrage; you'll never lose threat unless there is a threat drop mechanic). Thanks to Taunts, threat generation is only a factor for the first 10 seconds or so of a fight when threat values are so low that 30% of total is less than a Stockstrike or 2.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Mitthrawdo's Avatar


Mitthrawdo
08.30.2012 , 10:36 AM | #22
The part about your rotation and what abilities you use most often doesn't mention high impact bolt. Do you not use it?

CitizenFry's Avatar


CitizenFry
08.30.2012 , 12:17 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Raczo_liga View Post
You are correct that no one should PUT points into Accuracy. That being said, every Vanguard is going to get accuracy as one of their stats from end-game gear. Never put any more than that into Accuracy, and if you are lucky enough to find a comparable modification piece to replace one with accuracy, definitely use it.
Hopefully you picked up multiple Columi Supercommando's Gauntlets and Columi Supercommando's Helmets, and can put the enhancements from those into your other Columi gear, your Rakata gear, or your Black Hole MK-1 gear as you get it. Thankfully Campaign gear at least has decent Enhancements in it. :/
Crafting on The Ebon Hawk. PST/mail: Blayze (rep) / K'ron (imp)
Armoring: Commando 26, Reflex 26; Barrel: Patron 26
Mod: Weighted 26+26B, Deflecting 26 Enhancement: Bulwark 26, Battle 26, Finesse 26
Ear: Black Hole Mender's MK-2 Relay

Raczo_liga's Avatar


Raczo_liga
08.30.2012 , 02:13 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Mitthrawdo View Post
The part about your rotation and what abilities you use most often doesn't mention high impact bolt. Do you not use it?
I will have to add that into the guide, but yes, I use HiB every time it is available. Since they added that nice little AoE burst of Ion Cell to HiB, its even better than it was before.

Raczo_liga's Avatar


Raczo_liga
08.30.2012 , 02:14 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by CitizenFry View Post
Hopefully you picked up multiple Columi Supercommando's Gauntlets and Columi Supercommando's Helmets, and can put the enhancements from those into your other Columi gear, your Rakata gear, or your Black Hole MK-1 gear as you get it. Thankfully Campaign gear at least has decent Enhancements in it. :/
Yes I have, and I will add something about that to the guide to inform others as well.

CitizenFry's Avatar


CitizenFry
08.30.2012 , 03:20 PM | #26
Also good for ripping enhancements:
Columi Knight chest, boots, gloves, headgear
Columi Consular gloves, headgear
various Tionese, Energized, Xenotech, and Exotech pieces
Crafting on The Ebon Hawk. PST/mail: Blayze (rep) / K'ron (imp)
Armoring: Commando 26, Reflex 26; Barrel: Patron 26
Mod: Weighted 26+26B, Deflecting 26 Enhancement: Bulwark 26, Battle 26, Finesse 26
Ear: Black Hole Mender's MK-2 Relay

Raczo_liga's Avatar


Raczo_liga
08.30.2012 , 08:54 PM | #27
Thanks to everyone who has recently added some insight on specific things. I never intended to move beyond just a basic guide of "this is your ability and what it does", but I am going to expand it a bit, and provide some more in-depth information (as well as links to outside sources).

I have been learning a lot of previously unknown information myself ever since I started working on this guide, and I have noticed personally an improvement on my own tank as I get more and more educated.

Keep it coming!!!!

Kytea's Avatar


Kytea
08.30.2012 , 10:05 PM | #28
Can you show where the other ten points in your skilltree are? You only show 31 / 41
Thanks

RundoSim's Avatar


RundoSim
08.30.2012 , 11:45 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by CitizenFry View Post
Sticky bomb is actually a good opener. It won't put you "into combat" until the projectile actually hits the mob, so your GCD will actually be partially over. If I'm in a situation where I would open with Storm, I will almost always do Sticky -> Storm instead. Don't use your Explosive Surges immediately after your Storm. You have ~12s to use them, so make sure you've spent some ammo first, or they're wasted. A typical Storm opening should be something like

(Sticky Bomb) -> Storm -> Ion Pulse -> Energy Blast -> Ion Pulse -> Explosive Surge (1) -> Ion Pulse -> Explosive Surge (2) -> Stockstrike -> High Impact Bolt

If you're concerned about building AOE threat so mobs don't eat your healers, you might move the first Explosive Surge forward one place, but I wouldn't move it any further than that (and you should probably be using Mortar Volley in that scenario, anyway).
Personally I wouldn't use that rotation. It doesn't start your cooldown on Stockstrike soon enough and using Energy Blast after using only a few ammo is a waste.

Sticky Bomb -> Storm -> Stockstrike -> Explosive Surge (1) -> Ion Pulse -> HiB -> Stockstrike (if it reset due to shielding, if not, Ion Pulse) -> Explosive Surge (2) -> Energy Blast

By the time you throw your SB and Storm you'll have gained at least 1 ammo from regen and 1 from shielding and attack, then during your ES or it's GCD you'll have gained another ammo back. You're trying to gain AOE threat and keep threat on your priority target. If dps start in too early and don't take out the trash first you'll lose aggro fast. Always SB and Storm your highest priority target:

You also want to spread your Surges out, 1 at the beginning and 1 at the end to maximize the damage debuff on your targets. Your GCD is 1.5 secs so you'll have expended 3 seconds before using the first ES and the last one will be after 9-10 seconds. That will also give you about 20s of 5% less damage from the group.

I don't have Energy Blast talented because I never go low on ammo and the damage from the attack isn't a great threat builder. I took Brutal Impact instead for the added 6% damage to HiB since it gets a 60% talented armor penetration.

This is my spec

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
08.31.2012 , 12:45 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by RundoSim View Post
Personally I wouldn't use that rotation. It doesn't start your cooldown on Stockstrike soon enough and using Energy Blast after using only a few ammo is a waste.
I concur with your basic rundown on Stockstrike, but I have to disagree concerning Energy Blast. I use it any time that I don't have full Ammo (or, at least, won't be at full ammo after the latest GCD). At worst, if it tops me off and none of my other harder hitters are available, I'll just burn down some Ammo with an Ion Pulse so that my ammo regen is always working for me. As a VG, you can always find a way to get rid of potentially excess ammo.

As to AoE and initial threat generation, I'm probably the only VG tank I've met that doesn't touch Sticky Grenade at all (I just don't see it as being that useful). Of course, I also don't really use Explosive Surge that much either (I think the only times I ever touch it is when I've just used Storm, which I tend not to open with, and I notice that the rest of my abilities are on CD), and I've never had a single problem with AoE damage or threat generation (I just use Pulse Cannon and Mortar Volley for most of my needs and Sonic Round if I *really* need to get threat). I prefer to just open up with Mortar Volley and tab-target my way through those few enemies that escape my opening threat. A lot of this is due to my general paranoia concerning breaking CC, but it lets me focus on ST threat generation. I've given serious consideration to just getting rid of Static Surge from my spec, but I don't really know what to replace it with (which is problematic since the only useful replacement is Brutal Impact and that's of such low value that the occasional free, higher damage Explosive Surge could easily be more valuable).

Quote:
I don't have Energy Blast talented because I never go low on ammo and the damage from the attack isn't a great threat builder. I took Brutal Impact instead for the added 6% damage to HiB since it gets a 60% talented armor penetration.
Ever since 1.2 landed, I wouldn't imagine going without Energy Blast on a VG tank, even for a 6% increase in HiB's damage. The reasons for this are multifold: it's off the GCD so it doesn't take the place of any of your other attacks, it provides you with extra ammo so that, even if you never run out of ammo, you can start dumping more into additional Ion Pulses rather than Hammer Shots, and it allows you to generate your Absorb stacks faster.

As such, Energy Blast is a better investment than the additional damage to HiB that you decided to take: Energy Blast deals roughly 700-800 damage whlie HiB, even with the 60% arpen deals 1.5k-ish. 6% of 1.5k is going to be only 90 damage or so. Energy Blast will provide more than 600 more damage per 15 second interval than Brutal Impact while costing only 1 skill point further compounded by the fact that Brutal Impact doesn't improve your ammo regen whatsoever whereas Energy Blast *does*.

TL: DR Energy Blast is amazing, and you're a fool if you don't take it. None of the other talents that could potentially take its place even remotely measure up.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.