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shield, defence, absorbsion caps?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
shield, defence, absorbsion caps?

Funick's Avatar


Funick
07.30.2012 , 04:53 PM | #11
also make sure you understand how they add and that shield doesnt work on crits. consider the following:

25% defense chance(after factoring in acc) 50% shield chance against say a 20% crit chance would mean:

25% of white damage* attacks gets dodged
15% of white damage attacks crit (20% of 75%)
37.5% of white damage attacks don't crit and get shielded (50% of 75%)
22.5% of white damage attacks don't crit but are not shielded.

*most pve damage is white damage while much of the pvp damage is yellow which bypasses all defense/shield.

so while at first glance you may expect 75% of attacks to be shielded or dodged actually only 62.5% are and of course shield only partially blocks the damage and only on the weaker hitting non-crits, also if crit and shield were to add to over 100% the crit over rides and effectively caps the shield chance.
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ImmortalAlien's Avatar


ImmortalAlien
07.30.2012 , 05:05 PM | #12
Ah yeah, here's where I messed up:

Hard caps:
Defense Chance :: Defense adds +30% at the most. Cap without talent buffs is 35%.
Shield Chance :: Shield Rating adds +50% at the most. Cap without talent buffs is 70%.
Shield Absorbtion :: Absorb adds +50% at the most. Cap without talent buffs is 70%.

Depending on your class and talents, your exact +X% need for which secondary stat changes. Also, procs for abilities and talents are different for each of the tanking classes.

Also, the points needed to get to each cap from the order of least to greatest:
Defense > Shield Chance > Shield Absorbtion

Ratio of D/S/A points to which skill they enhance:
55/32/18

In other words, Defense requires a lot of points to reach it cap whereas Absorb requires a lot fewer. For a baseline +350 for each (quite possible to get with Campaign level gear):
Defense :: +10.5%
Shield Chance :: +17.9%
Absorb :: +27.2%

That's partly why I suggest going the Absorb > Shield > Defense route going by +X% no matter the class. If you aim for getting to near +30% Defense Chance, or even just 30% Defense Chance, you'll never get there with Campaign gear and augments.

Also:

For Juggernauts, the only proc they get that requires Defense Chance exclusively is Retaliation. However, Juggernaut tanks get +6% Defense Chance.

For Powertechs, Shielding an attack vents 8 heat and finishes the cooldown of Rocket Punch. However, Powertech tanks get +8% Shield Chance.

For Assassins, their Force regeneration procs off of all defensive abilities.

CitizenFry's Avatar


CitizenFry
07.31.2012 , 05:49 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Funick View Post
also make sure you understand how they add and that shield doesnt work on crits. consider the following:

25% defense chance(after factoring in acc) 50% shield chance against say a 20% crit chance would mean:

25% of white damage* attacks gets dodged
15% of white damage attacks crit (20% of 75%)
37.5% of white damage attacks don't crit and get shielded (50% of 75%)
22.5% of white damage attacks don't crit but are not shielded.

*most pve damage is white damage while much of the pvp damage is yellow which bypasses all defense/shield.

so while at first glance you may expect 75% of attacks to be shielded or dodged actually only 62.5% are and of course shield only partially blocks the damage and only on the weaker hitting non-crits, also if crit and shield were to add to over 100% the crit over rides and effectively caps the shield chance.
That's not how the two-roll system works. Dodge and crit are both on the same roll - for your example, 25% of attacks are dodged, and 20% are crits (not 20% of 75%).

edit: some of my comment here is wrong. See KeyboardNinja's post, further down.
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BlastingGravy's Avatar


BlastingGravy
07.31.2012 , 09:46 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by CitizenFry View Post
While it's true that 30%, 50%, 50% are, in fact, caps on how much you can gain from the respective ratings, the fact is that you can't get very close to them with current levels of gear. I stack as much D/S/A as possible on my Vanguard, and I'm only at about 8% def, 31% shield, 37% absorb from ratings. Meanwhile, if you just flat out state 30%/50%/50% are the caps, people are going to miss the "from rating" part of your comment, and proceed to stack waaaaaay too much defense rating (or worse, start putting points into non-defensive stats).
Well, if they aren't going to read my post, then there's no point worrying about what they do, because they are obviously beyond hope anyway.
Quote: Originally Posted by CitizenFry View Post
Absorb Rating, Shield Rating, and Defense Rating are all on logarithmic curves.
They're exponential curves, actually. A logarithmic curve wouldn't have a cap.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.31.2012 , 05:28 PM | #15
Time to clear up some errors…

First off, most of what CitizenFry said is correct, so go off of that.

Quote: Originally Posted by BlastingGravy View Post
They're exponential curves, actually. A logarithmic curve wouldn't have a cap.
An exponential curve would not have a cap. In either case, it's two words for the same thing. Logarithms are the mathematical duals of exponents. The correct term is "logarithmic curve, asymptotic to x" (where x is the "cap")

There are no caps on stats in SWTOR (except armor). You can continue stacking defense infinitely and you will continue to receive more value. However, you will NEVER get to 100% defense. You will just get less and less value from each additional point. Thus, the ideal itemization is always largely balanced between the ratings.
  • The value from defense rating is asymptotic to 30%
  • The value from absorb rating is asymptotic to 50%
  • The value from shield rating is asymptotic to 30%

Regarding the two-roll system, crit and dodge are on two separate rolls. Dodge is rolled first (against accuracy), *then* crit is rolled (against shield).

Finally, the stat priority for tanks varies a lot based on exactly how much you have of each. Generally speaking, the following holds:
  • Guardians: DEFENSE >> shield > absorb
  • Shadows: absorb (after two-piece bonus) > defense > shield
  • Vanguards: absorb > shield > defense

Things change around quite a bit as you get to the higher stat budgets. The value of stats on my shadow is almost dead-even (to within 4 thousandths of a percent). Vanguards also have an interesting switcheroo at higher stat levels, where shield exceeds the value of absorb. Guardians need defense until like 700 points, so it's nuts.
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BlastingGravy's Avatar


BlastingGravy
07.31.2012 , 05:58 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
An exponential curve would not have a cap. In either case, it's two words for the same thing. Logarithms are the mathematical duals of exponents. The correct term is "logarithmic curve, asymptotic to x" (where x is the "cap")
It's not the same thing, they are inverses. Exponential functions have horizontal asymptotes, but logarithms have vertical asymptotes. Logarithmic functions have no inherent bounds on their range. If you look at the formula, it is very clearly an exponential function. I wouldn't be very good at my job as a calculus tutor if I didn't know the difference. Perhaps you are confusing exponential decay with exponential growth?
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
08.01.2012 , 08:57 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by BlastingGravy View Post
It's not the same thing, they are inverses. Exponential functions have horizontal asymptotes, but logarithms have vertical asymptotes. Logarithmic functions have no inherent bounds on their range. If you look at the formula, it is very clearly an exponential function. I wouldn't be very good at my job as a calculus tutor if I didn't know the difference. Perhaps you are confusing exponential decay with exponential growth?
I work as a mathematician, so I'm pretty confident in my terminology here. :-) Neither exponential nor logarithmic functions have asymptotes (well, not upper-bounding asymptotes). Base form of each:
  • Exponential: f(x) = e^x
  • Logarithmic: f(x) = ln x

Practically speaking, the terms are used interchangably, since they both describe a particular *rate of change* in the curve itself, which is what is interesting. The asymptote attribute needs to be specified, and cannot simply be assumed.

Technically, the stat values in TOR are on an inverted exponential decay. The general form is essentially:

f(x) = a - (1 - (1 - (0.01 / (a / 100))) ^ ((x / (50 * b))

Thus, the function exponentially decays toward a.
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BlastingGravy's Avatar


BlastingGravy
08.01.2012 , 09:16 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Technically, the stat values in TOR are on an inverted exponential decay. The general form is essentially:

f(x) = a - (1 - (1 - (0.01 / (a / 100))) ^ ((x / (50 * b))

Thus, the function exponentially decays toward a.
That's what I've been saying the whole time. If you acknowledge that it's an exponential function, why are you acting like I'm wrong?
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
08.01.2012 , 09:51 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by BlastingGravy View Post
That's what I've been saying the whole time. If you acknowledge that it's an exponential function, why are you acting like I'm wrong?
Terminology thing. I think we're just arguing about pointless semantics. Neither of us are wrong. :-)
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CitizenFry's Avatar


CitizenFry
08.01.2012 , 09:57 AM | #20
Because if you say that a value decays upwards, people look at you funny.
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