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nerf snipers


Skolops's Avatar


Skolops
07.28.2012 , 08:11 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Well i die to them too, when i am focused on interrupting the captures and bomb planting.
but 1vs1 we should always win, unless he has a line of sight obstruction within 10 meters from us.

The evasion itself delays his railshot rotation by 3 seconda, his thermal detonator is absorbed by ballistic dampers and shield probe. We have 2 knockbacks and 2 roots to keep him at distance from refreshfing his railshot CD with rocketpunch and flame burst. Oh and passive 20% defense against railshots.

There is really nothing a pt pyro can do against a good sniper.

against tanks we got target acquired which made our life easier.
Again, this is 1 v 1. It's really pretty dumb to discuss class balance around 1 v 1, because things change entirely in a warzone with 14 other people to worry about.

All of that works great in theory until you don't have any of this stuff because you had to use it on a marauder 10 seconds earlier. Then, he gets in range, you're dotted, you're slowed, you're railshotted - 3 seconds later or not - game over.
El'Skan-Assassin /// Laetrie-Sniper /// Caelie-Slinger /// Fidaeria-Jugg
Armack -Chaetrie -Gaurex -Isdron -Skol'ompara /// Misericordiae -Elnar -Rujko -Sophiya
<I AM LEGEND>
Prophecy of the Five

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
07.28.2012 , 08:15 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Skolops View Post
Again, this is 1 v 1. It's really pretty dumb to discuss class balance around 1 v 1, because things change entirely in a warzone with 14 other people to worry about.

All of that works great in theory until you don't have any of this stuff because you had to use it on a marauder 10 seconds earlier. Then, he gets in range, you're dotted, you're slowed, you're railshotted - 3 seconds later or not - game over.
Same can be said about the PT, he can have thermal det on CD, be completel overheated. Saying that sniper is weak against PT because he had to fight a marauder before does not make him a weak class against PT.

Ballistic dampers i will always have unless i am still entrenched. And if i dont have any of my 12sec CDs available, well this is no longer a 1vs1 fight but a 1vs2.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

Skolops's Avatar


Skolops
07.28.2012 , 08:17 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Same can be said about the PTm he can have thermal det on CD, be completel overheated. Saying that sniper is weak against PT because he had to fight a marauder before does not make him a weak class against PT.
No, the question is whether snipers need a nerf or not, and the answer is no, with the reason being that all of that great damage they can do is pretty worthless when they don't have a team to support them well enough that they don't have 15 deaths in the game.
El'Skan-Assassin /// Laetrie-Sniper /// Caelie-Slinger /// Fidaeria-Jugg
Armack -Chaetrie -Gaurex -Isdron -Skol'ompara /// Misericordiae -Elnar -Rujko -Sophiya
<I AM LEGEND>
Prophecy of the Five

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
07.28.2012 , 08:23 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Skolops View Post
No, the question is whether snipers need a nerf or not, and the answer is no, with the reason being that all of that great damage they can do is pretty worthless when they don't have a team to support them well enough that they don't have 15 deaths in the game.
The reason why snipers dont need a nerf is not because of the individual matchups, they are all perfectly fine. Sniper is probably the only class that can scale exponentially well with the team. If the team is crap and does not pressure enemy then sniper is useless. Get me a skilled marauder that takes all the attention to himself, and i can decimate everyone.

Put me into a team of bad players, and i cannot carry them to victory alone, no matter how many i kill.
A PT however can have a greater impact on a bad team.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
07.28.2012 , 08:24 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Skolops View Post
That CC immunity only comes every minute and you need to predict when to use it properly. You can't activate it when you're already CCed, you know. It's really only useful when an operative or someone is dumb enough to get close enough that you can see him in stealth before he starts his attack. Otherwise, CCs come too unexpectedly to be of any use. I think that, as people tend to do and shouldn't when discussing balance, that you're considering a one on one. Sure, in a 1v1 the sniper will pop his entrench and be in very good shape. In a warzone, though, a CC can come from anywhere at any time.

Now apart from that useful but limited skill, its much harder for a sniper to deal with CCs than other classes. They're very squishy, and very slow. He can't break a stun and use his resilience like a Shadow, run away like a Sage, leap somewhere like a Sentinel, or what have you. The melee classes all tend to have several pretty good CCs - especially Juggernauts/Guardians, so it's very hard for a sniper to safely use his break on any one of them. Yes, its hard on the melee class too if the sniper has his knockbacks and root on cooldown, but if he does not or if the melee gets any support from even one other player, that sniper's day is done.

A good sniper can put up 800 k in a voidstar if he's left alone or has good heals. If he doesn't, he's going to struggle mightily.
Snipers/Gunslingers should eat every non-stealth melee class (well, the two of them) for breakfast, they are basically designed for it. Especially as those melee classes DO NOT have pretty good CC, with the exception of Juggernaut/Guardian TANKS. But tanks only.

Their bane are the stealth classes, that pop out from stealth and do huge burst on them. But they can have Entrench up 20 seconds out of 60 - that is the best defense against CC that any class has in the game.

EDIT: I don't think they should be nerfed, before anyone assumes so.

RainbowRue's Avatar


RainbowRue
07.28.2012 , 08:25 AM | #26
Unlike Sents Gunslingers/Snipers have almost no decent defensive cooldowns and will melt if focused. Our damage is almost all white so we are awful vs tanks and if Shadows/Sins or Knights/Warriors pop there shield we only have a 50% chance to hit. Gunslingers are amazing at melting light armor targets good at killing medium armor but suck at killing tanks and can be useless if you pop that deflection shield.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
07.28.2012 , 08:25 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
Snipers/Gunslingers should eat every non-stealth melee class (well, the two of them) for breakfast, they are basically designed for it. Especially as those melee classes DO NOT have pretty good CC, with the exception of Juggernaut/Guardian TANKS. But tanks only.

Their bane are the stealth classes, that pop out from stealth and do huge burst on them. But they can have Entrench up 20 seconds out of 60 - that is the best defense against CC that any class has in the game.
I think the jug vengeance immunity on leap is better.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

Skolops's Avatar


Skolops
07.28.2012 , 08:28 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
The reason why snipers dont need a nerf is not because of the individual matchups, they are all perfectly fine. Sniper is probably the only class that can scale exponentially well with the team. If the team is crap and does not pressure enemy then sniper is useless. Get me a skilled marauder that takes all the attention to himself, and i can decimate everyone.

Put me into a team of bad players, and i cannot carry them to victory alone, no matter how many i kill.
A PT however can have a greater impact on a bad team.
That's exactly what I've been saying. A sniper needs team support. Without it, he's completely useless. When you're beat by a sniper, its his team that beat you, not just him.
El'Skan-Assassin /// Laetrie-Sniper /// Caelie-Slinger /// Fidaeria-Jugg
Armack -Chaetrie -Gaurex -Isdron -Skol'ompara /// Misericordiae -Elnar -Rujko -Sophiya
<I AM LEGEND>
Prophecy of the Five

Skolops's Avatar


Skolops
07.28.2012 , 08:30 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
Snipers/Gunslingers should eat every non-stealth melee class (well, the two of them) for breakfast, they are basically designed for it. Especially as those melee classes DO NOT have pretty good CC, with the exception of Juggernaut/Guardian TANKS. But tanks only.

Their bane are the stealth classes, that pop out from stealth and do huge burst on them. But they can have Entrench up 20 seconds out of 60 - that is the best defense against CC that any class has in the game.

EDIT: I don't think they should be nerfed, before anyone assumes so.
It is, but like you said, against stealth classes it's very hard to use because you need to anticipate it, which is possible at times, but for the most part it isn't.

That said, its again a question of being in a warzone where everything is dynamic. Any non-stealth melee class can really rip up a sniper when he doesn't have his distance generating abilities off cooldown. Or, when two of them are coming at you, in which case you can stop one, but not both of them from getting to and doing a number on you. Maybe you can still out DPS the one that does, maybe not. Either way, you have the second coming up on you shortly.
El'Skan-Assassin /// Laetrie-Sniper /// Caelie-Slinger /// Fidaeria-Jugg
Armack -Chaetrie -Gaurex -Isdron -Skol'ompara /// Misericordiae -Elnar -Rujko -Sophiya
<I AM LEGEND>
Prophecy of the Five

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
07.28.2012 , 08:32 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
I think the jug vengeance immunity on leap is better.
The total maximum uptime of that is 20 seconds every minute, the same as in the case of the Gunslinger/Sniper; and you need to use Force Leap every time when it's available and also have to put in a Force Push > Force Leap combo. It's also a talent, not a default class ability.

Of course Unstoppable/Unremitting is insanely useful (especially as many ranged classes waste their stuns or knockbacks immediately after Force Leap while Entrench/Hunker Down is more visible, quite obvious in fact) but it requires more work to fully utilize