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The State of the Game - Via PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The State of the Game - Via PvP

Bakarn's Avatar


Bakarn
12.20.2011 , 09:46 AM | #21
Gonna put money that there are only a handful of people who have ever been "held back" by a 1.5s GCD posting on these forums and those people are probably being paid to play pro Starcraft right now.

A 1.5s GCD means you're taking around 40 attributable actions per minute. Assuming you retarget an average of once every 3-4s you are adding an extra 20 a minute. Throw in the fact that your keyboard hand has on average two fingers tied up with movement alone and if you move around or change direction to keep pace with another player, you're performing many more than 60 APM.

Most non-pro mid level Starcraft players are pushing 40-100 APM, with highs of 150-200. Playing a class at its potential without considering positional requirements or ability choice at all requires a raw 100 APM or so.

That alone should explain why so many people are bad at MMOs. There is a reason why more twitch based games have so few available actions and why those actions tend to be combinational rather than activation based.

Mackuss's Avatar


Mackuss
12.20.2011 , 11:48 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Thaonnor View Post
I fight with this feeling every time I play. The engine is very much less responsive than WoW and it hurts to play if you have spent even 5 minutes playing WoW. In WoW, I hit an ability when the GCD is up and it goes off. In SWTOR I hit it and have to hit it AGAIN in order to make up for the clunky less responsive combat engine.

A lack of auto attack, while kind of unique and requiring more player input, does make you feel like you are doing NOTHING a lot of the time. I find myself especially having an issue when a target is low health and multiple mobs are attacking it. First I wait the 1.5 seconds, then I try to get off the killing blow only to realize that it has been taken a second before my ability actually hits and effectively is wasted and I now switch targets and wait another 1.5 seconds to do anything. That is 3 seconds of doing nothing... that 3 seconds adds up.
Yeah it even got worse lately when I just got the talent for my sniper that makes it to where, whenever I enter cover my next Snipe is instant.

It's almost pointless, lol. Because I'm I'd rather that insane burst damage of a Snipe+Rifle Shot combo. Instead I get into Cover, Snipe instantly........................and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaait to do my next move.
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Bakarn's Avatar


Bakarn
12.20.2011 , 11:50 AM | #23
Btw, the damage from your abilities is done instantly. It's just the animations that wait. You'd think observant PvPers would realize that.

Mackuss's Avatar


Mackuss
12.20.2011 , 11:51 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Bakarn View Post
Gonna put money that there are only a handful of people who have ever been "held back" by a 1.5s GCD posting on these forums and those people are probably being paid to play pro Starcraft right now.

A 1.5s GCD means you're taking around 40 attributable actions per minute. Assuming you retarget an average of once every 3-4s you are adding an extra 20 a minute. Throw in the fact that your keyboard hand has on average two fingers tied up with movement alone and if you move around or change direction to keep pace with another player, you're performing many more than 60 APM.

Most non-pro mid level Starcraft players are pushing 40-100 APM, with highs of 150-200. Playing a class at its potential without considering positional requirements or ability choice at all requires a raw 100 APM or so.

That alone should explain why so many people are bad at MMOs. There is a reason why more twitch based games have so few available actions and why those actions tend to be combinational rather than activation based.
I understand you think you know what you're talking about (and DO know what you're talking about in regards to SC2 playing) - it's not just the pros that get APMs like that - I very steadily rock that as TERRAN. Likewise the pros aren't the only ones that do that - the only people that can think fast don't only play SC2.

Bottomline WoW allows you to play NEARLY as fast as you can think. SWTOR allows you to play ridiculously under the speed limit at which threats and obstacles are coming at you. They really need to allow Alacrity to lower the GCD.
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Sarah_Kerrigan's Avatar


Sarah_Kerrigan
12.20.2011 , 11:52 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Mackuss View Post
There is a giant design/logic flaw in this game.

The more I play, the more it seems to keep centralizing itself with the 1.5 GCD. Now, I completely agree arenas are utterly toxic to MMOs, but there's a peculiar conundrum that this game has created for itself.

Everything, and I mean everything about the fact that the GCD being 1.5 seconds logically points itself to, that, as long as it is like that, the game is designed FOR arenas. Think about it, since day one everyone has been saying that, because the GCD is what it is it, "creates more of a need to critically think about your moves, not get into locked rotations, and strategy will play more of a role in things".

I COMPLETELY, 100% agree with that, and to be honest, with the way I'm forced to play because of the GCD, I feel like there would be no greater game on the market for competitive PvP. For those reasons alone. In comparison, honestly, this game makes arena in WoW a hefty laugh with the way strategy is needed in a fight.

But what it's done to virtually everything else in the game - open world PvP/PvE(not SO much), and Warzones is render them virtually illogical and, for lack of a better term, pointless. All because of something so simple as the GCD. How?

There may be a lot of you out there that didn't play it but do you remember Halo? The game was great and fun and all, but do you remember what it was like on the smaller more..."intimate" maps? The entire game basically turned into a game of "clean up" kills. That is, it doesn't really matter if you kill someone because as soon as you do, someone comes along and hits you when you're about dead anyway. Now, take that concept and stretch it very very very finely, like a silk blanket, and imagine placing it over the entire game structure. The concept being: someone comes along and does something to you while you are in the middle of doing something else. It doesn't matter what that something is - it could be something very very little, so little, that it takes 1.5 seconds to do it - but the point is you are doing something and are rendered incapable of doing anything else, EVEN IF IT'S 1.5 SECONDS LONG, short of running.

That's all warzones are, or any form of PvP that's not dueling. It's something that transcends any argument really - it's going to happen between the most skilled premades, and between the most random pugs, because, well, it's the game. The game is completely logical and insanely well crafted when you are attacking another person - but the SECOND someone else starts attacking you (that is 2v1 even for a few seconds), the ability to be effective drops exponentially and sharply. Because the concept of someone doing something to you while you are doing something else is essentially occurring every single time you start a 1.5 GCD, and multiplied by anyone else attacking you.

And before you post, or even think "well anyone's going to die if they're being attacked by more people" - I want to tell you #1 - That's not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, not the time at which you are ALLOWED to think about reacting, I'm talking about the time in which you CAN react. and #2 - that's not true. On my hunter in WoW, even in the middle of a heated battle I could very easily and quickly gee-tee-eff-oh a tight spot.

In WoW, the global cooldown was long enough to not allow anyone to spam everything inside of the time it takes a thought to hit your fingertips, but short enough to allow you to react to incoming threats, assess them, and actually DO something about it - to act accordingly. The current state of SWTOR is, it really doesn't matter how fast you can think, or how many good decisions you are capable of making quickly, or how skilled you are, you are an absolute slave to the 1.5 GCD. And it multiplies exponentially for every threat that comes your way - every time someone attacks YOU, there is another threat that you have to react to inside of your 1.5 seconds, and then can't because you're left staring at someone, THUS rendering you incapable to deal with multiple threats quickly and, in some cases, at all. Basically put. it renders you incapable of allowing you to play anywhere NEAR as fast as you can think. Not to MENTION how there is no diminishing returns (noticeably anyway), so you can be stunned until death.

Maybe to alleviate this, they should put way more things off of the GCD, but I don't know what that would do for the already atrocious server side lag.

Anyways, that's the state of the game. It's in a very peculiar place at the moment - and I don't see this extremely non-action-packed PvP style keeping many people for long - so it needs to highlight its strengths. And those strengths, ironically, is a competitive/arena style of gameplay.
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Bakarn's Avatar


Bakarn
12.20.2011 , 12:01 PM | #26
WoW has entire classes for whom they have only one off GCD ability. Retribution paladins and Arms warriors have one or two for each classes, most of which are proc based. Holy paladins come Pandas will have zero because they lose Rebuke. Most of those that are off GCD are damage buffs which is hardly an active ability, is it.

Rogues have an artificially lowered GCD but also have a throttle in place drastically lowering the amount of APM required to actually micromanage to the pace of energy regen.

Casters have a haste dependent GCD which is largely irrelevent due to the timing of attacks. The responsiveness you attribute to the GCD is due to the GCD being lower than most cast time spells. This is also a game which gives casters a finite pool of damage and also has spent the last two expansions trying to figure out a way to remove that limitation without completely breaking the game. They've failed for at least three arena seasons doing that.

I also doubt you have more than 100 APM in Starcraft 2. I certainly don't and WoW was barely even keeping pace with me at a yawn. If you think it was a challenge then you're certainly slower than me.

Simply put, you've yet to give an actual reason why WoW, a game which requires you to use LESS actions and has even more restrictive systems than SWTOR is somehow "better" because of it. Protip - the standard GCDs in both games is THE SAME LENGTH.

Size-Matters-Not's Avatar


Size-Matters-Not
12.20.2011 , 12:11 PM | #27
Never played WOW - SWG is the only MMO ever played. I find SWTOR combat to be very clunky. I haven't even made it off the home planet yet to PVP - I'm still being pawned by NPCs with my classes except sith/jedi.

I'm use to playing officer in SWG where I could manage my fast attack and aoe specials, cooldowns, manage multiple targets, los, stim buffs, camera pan - all fast and with ease. SWTOR just really seems clunky in comparison, and I'm sure it's me as I've yet to figure out a good keyboard/mouse setup to deal with fluid combat.
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Nitengalez's Avatar


Nitengalez
12.20.2011 , 12:25 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Mackuss View Post
http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/bl...ere-a-mistake/

lol. Not the brightest crayon in the box are we?

Blizzard even admitted it's the worst thing they ever did because the second the thing was created, the game there on out has to be changed and balanced around them. The second you insert arena in games, no matter how you slice it, the game is now a game balanced around arena and everything else (questing, PvE) are now side thoughts.

Not the other way around.
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Mackuss's Avatar


Mackuss
12.20.2011 , 10:28 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Sarah_Kerrigan View Post
Nope.
Yup.

Even if didn't believe what I was saying, it wouldn't change the fact.
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TheDirtyRider's Avatar


TheDirtyRider
12.20.2011 , 10:38 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Mackuss View Post
I know on the wiki it says it's 1.5 seconds, but anyone who's got to level 20 in WoW can tell you that's not the case.
Any anyone with half a brain can tell you its 1.5 seconds.

1.0 seconds for DK's in unholy presence.
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