Now before anyone jumps up and down i just want to make clear this isnt asking or suggesting anything for swtor. This isnt about recreating another game within this one or altering this game in any way shape or form.

What im wondering is that i myself have played mmos and before that rts, fps, stand alone rgs and simulator games for atleast close to 3 decades and im assuming that others have too even if not to the same degree. What do you think the lessons learned from different aspects of sandbox/themepark gameplay could be seen within swtor. Be it playerhousing, player created quests or basically anything else you can think of that relates to games in general along sandbox/themepark aspects.

What have you seen in other games that you have played that worked ok but had side effects, if they were to come in how would you like them tobe done. What have you seen that damaged a game and what features have you seen come into games that just did not go far enough and was left on the sidelines.

And if you saw them coming into the game how would you like them to be implimented or restricted from the game.

I think sandbox MMOs such as SWG came at the wrong time. They were too ambitious, had a huge learning curve and required PCs at that time to have at least Transform & Lighting(T&L) - which was only found on expensive cards despite Nvidia offering a confusing line up of budget cards.

Fast forward 2004 and World of Warcraft. Structured in its approach, didnt require a mid range PC to play and offered a clear direction for the gamer in progression.

Fast forward 2012 and many gamers have become bored with the themepark MMO. It relies too much on developers to churn out regular updates and this is something most simply cant do. Players rapidly lose interest and unsub. They may/not come back when theres some 'new' updates but even rehashing the same old crap, giving it a different colour doesnt always help.

I think had Bioware flexed some creative muscle and offered a mixture of both, then it probably wouldnt have lost 700,000 players in under 5 months. Their decision to use the Hero Engine, was a bad mistake as its simply too demanding and clunky and requires a pretty good spec PC to get some stable FPS.

Every step of the way, SWTOR is littered with design flaws as they clearly focused way too much on copying World of Warcraft and thinking that 'Story' would be enough to keep people here.

If SWTOR did have some sandbox elements, players could have been free to do what they like until some new content arrives - without the need to be whisked away to some shame hole instance for a pvp fix(for example).

I think you hit on a good point, alot of games that try to verge to far to the sandbox side in the past were fighting the technology. They sacrifice on the graphics and animations like swg suffered because really in concept original swg was a great game that was hugly miss mamanged and they just didnt have the tech server side and back then players didnt have the tech client side to do something so ambitious. Similar thing with war, great game bad tech.

Yep I agree with your point the and poster's above. I really wish a major developer would do a Sandbox MMO a good one. I would play EvE but it's just not my type of theme.

I very much agree with DarthMaulUK and posted my opinion often in a similar way.

What I really do not understand is why certain system simply replace other systems. so you have themepark style activities in your mmo, why does that have to be exclusive?

It's easier to make a theme park game and then add sandbox features than it is to release a sandbox game and then realise people need direction.

So hopefully we're on the right track

I think rift are going in that direction right now and sto did with the foundry, shame they never really had a themepark game to start off with.

I liked the foundry mission creater though and phasing allowed it to work well, playerhousing in concept in swg was great, the way it was implimented though so planets were just littered was the drawback. Did anyone play eq2's player housing an explain how that worked or any other form of player housing.

The single best crafting system of any MMO I have played has to be UO. It was done in such a way at the beginning atleast, a player could devote himself to perfecting his craft and it was possible to rise up to such a high level, they could make the very best weapons and armor the game had to offer. And it was logically done, in the sense a Blacksmith for example could "repair" any plate and mail armor.

I boggles my mind how other MMO's can let a player become a master at his craft, yet lack the skills to even repair his items? And if my memory serves me correct, I think as weapon or armor lost it's best quality, it also lost some of it's effectiveness. Such as armor protection value and weapon damage., etc

What this type of approach did to the game in my opinion was create a real player driven economy. Where a high level crafter in his profession was held in high requards for his products by the player base. Another thing UO did really well was allow the player to have boats and travel freely around the world and use his boat to secure goods on. Horses also could be mounted for combat and there was the knowledge they could be killed too.

If they took the modern graphics we have nowdays and someone made another MMO like UO, with all it's features, I would buy it and pay a sub in a heartbeat. However, they would have to not make the stupid changes Origin did to UO about a year after it's release. And that is a long story, but led to reasons I quit.

SWTOR is too linear. It is a theme park on steroids. Playing SWTOR is like watching a movie, after seeing it a few times even if you love it, you know whats coming in the next scene. If people really like a movie they pay once for the blue ray or dvd and can watch it when ever they want. The don't pay a monthly subscription to do so.

SWTOR could get away with it if they added content very rapidly, but to date there haven't been any new story/character quests added to the game. ( Not surprising, I sent feedback in beta voicing concerns that the story elements take so much resources to create how can they possibly add content for all classes in a timely manner? Turns out they can't)

On the other hand a sandbox is a blank canvass, player determine what they want to do in the game world. If the developers do a good job in creating the world and give players lots of tools to shape the world much of the content will be created by the players themselves. ( A great example is in LOTRO where players can learn to play instruments, players have music festivals at Weathertop where full out bands get together and jam out! A great example of developers giving player tools and letting them run with them)

You can have both elements in a game, EQ is a great example of a game with sand box and theme park elements. WoW came along 5 years later and dumbed it down significantly and very successfully making it appealing to a very broad range of gamers.

The story isn't the problem with SWTOR. The problem with SWTOR is you simply can't play the game without it. You are forced to play SWTOR the way the devs tell you to. I think MMO players in general hate that notion. Players want the option to walk their own path.

SWTOR can still be saved, it just needs to open itself up some. It will cost money though and I am not sure EA will be willing to spend to get the game there at this point. Remember many aspects of the game were cut due to budget concerns so it was an issue even before launch and before the exodus of players. I am rooting for the game to rebound. In order to do so I think many changes need to happen.

I think sandbox MMOs such as SWG came at the wrong time. They were too ambitious, had a huge learning curve and required PCs at that time to have at least Transform & Lighting(T&L) - which was only found on expensive cards despite Nvidia offering a confusing line up of budget cards.

 

Fast forward 2004 and World of Warcraft. Structured in its approach, didnt require a mid range PC to play and offered a clear direction for the gamer in progression.

 

Fast forward 2012 and many gamers have become bored with the themepark MMO. It relies too much on developers to churn out regular updates and this is something most simply cant do. Players rapidly lose interest and unsub. They may/not come back when theres some 'new' updates but even rehashing the same old crap, giving it a different colour doesnt always help.

 

I think had Bioware flexed some creative muscle and offered a mixture of both, then it probably wouldnt have lost 700,000 players in under 5 months. Their decision to use the Hero Engine, was a bad mistake as its simply too demanding and clunky and requires a pretty good spec PC to get some stable FPS.

 

Every step of the way, SWTOR is littered with design flaws as they clearly focused way too much on copying World of Warcraft and thinking that 'Story' would be enough to keep people here.

 

If SWTOR did have some sandbox elements, players could have been free to do what they like until some new content arrives - without the need to be whisked away to some shame hole instance for a pvp fix(for example).

Excellent post.

Before WoW, all the games I played felt sandboxish to me. Although SWG took that philosophy to a new extreme, it didn't feel as if they were trying something radically new at the time, but rather flushing out something essentially that was always there in all MMOs. Even DAoC felt sandbox to me in comparison to today's games. Yes, there was a lot of WoW in DAoC even before WoW existed, but in those days you could just run out and explore and have adventures, you didn't need a NPC to tell you what adventures you were going to have and where to go to have them.

A couple of years after WoW the new games all felt somewhat fake. The virtual reality feeling in MMOs where the player was supreme rapidly began to fade and become replaced with hand-holding quest givers and a world where the NPC was supreme. Quests are inherently at odds with the very idea of a massive online world shared with thousands of players because they try to give you this nonsense about being the savoir of the universe or what not while they are telling all your fellow players exactly the same thing! It feels completely phony, and the result has been that PvE has become associated with a kind of lame hand-holding single player game which is only there to make players feel comfortable until they reach the "real" game.

A big part of that "real" game in the theme park era has been PvP. Player versus player has become one of the only remaining reminders of how MMOs used to be. In pvp, the content is player driven, you don't have any NPC telling you what to do or how to play. The world becomes real because all the phony "you are hero of the universe" nonsense is stripped away. It feels exciting because it requires intelligence and a degree of skill. After PvP, PvE seems even more of a mind-numbing experience. But that is not because PvE is inherently this way, it is because the WoW era has made PvE this way. There was a time, I think, when PvE was every bit as fun as PvP. The days when players drove PvE, not NPCs.

I have this feeling that the MMO world is on the verge of giving up on the WoW routine and is about to re-examine some of the insights of the pre-WoW era. Perhaps, like with anything, it is a case of two steps forward, one step back. WoW represented that one step back, causing us old timers to lament the loss of the earlier era. But with the next two steps forward we will be playing games better than anything ever made. I feel like we are on the verge of that change.

I suppose that is the swing and roundabouts espec with star wars IP, they had no option but to create an iconic story and bioware are the best in the buisness for that. people are generally bored of geargrinds and its how do you strike a balance.

Player created quests could work but it would have to be done in a way so that you cannot impact upon the cannon. So if you were to say have a cap on what you could create mission wise. playerhousing is something thats a wierd one to handle, you have the part of where does it go. We have a bonus on that as our ships could be our home and then its just a case of adapting them to be customized internally and externally.

But there is one thing that history has proven, sandbox is way cheaper to create and maintain then themepark, playerhousing and quest creaters rarly need to be updated and the players adapt it and develope it themselevs. whilst themepark quests, dungeons and operations go out of date relativly fast compared to an mmos lifespan.

I also think wow is suffering from the candy syndrome. eat to much of it and you will eventually become sick of it never want candy again.

I suppose that is the swing and roundabouts espec with star wars IP, they had no option but to create an iconic story and bioware are the best in the buisness for that. people are generally bored of geargrinds and its how do you strike a balance.

 

Player created quests could work but it would have to be done in a way so that you cannot impact upon the cannon. So if you were to say have a cap on what you could create mission wise. playerhousing is something thats a wierd one to handle, you have the part of where does it go. We have a bonus on that as our ships could be our home and then its just a case of adapting them to be customized internally and externally.

 

But there is one thing that history has proven, sandbox is way cheaper to create and maintain then themepark, playerhousing and quest creaters rarly need to be updated and the players adapt it and develope it themselevs. whilst themepark quests, dungeons and operations go out of date relativly fast compared to an mmos lifespan.

 

I also think wow is suffering from the candy syndrome. eat to much of it and you will eventually become sick of it never want candy again.

Depends. Some will continue to eat the candy and grow fat. lol!

Fardarter gave a excellent example of how TOR is different than other MMO's. The appeal WoW does for example is....it appeals to a wide variety of players in the sense it does give the player more options to experence the game. And it is this feeling of freedom which is important.

Good thread here, I have been playing computer games since the early 80's.

I think on thier own a sandbox or theme park game just does not offer enough options.

I played swg for a little over 4 years, I enjoyed the sandbox, but when they added some thempark elements I thought that was a great add to the game. I think player driven events like they had in swg were allot of fun, the dev's would come out as an iconic character like Darth Vader or Luke say a few things and over see or even take a small role in the action. These events always had allot of players taking part. Swg was very close to a sim I thought, maybe thats another element that needs to be thrown in.

The biggest fault of theme park mmo's to me is when they add new content it is really not new, just added content of the same thing we already have, example lets add a new ferris wheel, this one is green the other one is blue, at the end of the day you have rode another ferris wheel. Plus my toon does not feel like it lives in the world only playing through it.

I think with mmo's today, one of the big problem is the lack of diveristy in the game play, lets face it we have been playing this model since eq maybe even further back. Then wow came along and offered an eq style game that appealed to the mass of casual players that had pretty much been left out of online gaming. With the huge sucess of wow, companies have copied the wow model of play to the point, it seems like allot of people are just plain bored of it now.

I think what we need in today's games is a mix of sandbox/theme park style play, we need something to do between those content updates, not everything has to be combat, in the Star Wars universe, we could have, cantina games, swoop and pod racing, building those racers, with quests to get parts or crafted by crafters, then we could have races, where we could que up like warzones, or even an open world track, and let players in to watch the event, you could have leader boards, make it cross server so you really coulld have some bragging rites, this is just one idea in a sea of ideas, I know everyone has a different opinion as to what is fun, but mmo's try to paint with a wide brush to capture as many play stlyes as they can.

One thing I think is needed is an open dialogue with dev team, when they ask us something like what do we want and lets say guild capital ships for an expample, if we just say guild capital ships , I could almost bet that the guild capital ship would be nothing more than a mini space station...What we needed to tell them is what we exepct that ship to do, fly it, battle with it, it's all in the details.

But we have to be careful how we add and change mmo's, the traditional mmo player seems to have a set of rules the game must fall in and we gamers can be a fickle bunch But we need to be open minded to advances in the genre, mmo's are changing, how we pay and how we play, and I just hope they are a way many of us can enjoy.

Depends. Some will continue to eat the candy and grow fat. lol!

 

Fardarter gave a excellent example of how TOR is different than other MMO's. The appeal WoW does for example is....it appeals to a wide variety of players in the sense it does give the player more options to experence the game. And it is this feeling of freedom which is important.

well some peeps seem to be obbesse on the wow part but i do find that in wow just before i left it became a case of haves and have nots. Todo anything it seemed you had to have completed the thing that was competative in the 1st place which is just backwards thinking. The people at the front got ahead and the people at the back went further behind.

Now i saw this from the odd perspective that i was actually at the front of the group and not the back and actualy felt bad for the peeps who were being left behind. There was just no middleground in it if you know what i mean.

So i dont think its just the freedom which is important but also the fact you arnt railroaded into specific specs or builds, have specific armour etc to enjoy the aspect of the game your after. Because on wow generally you had 2 roads to follow. Endgame PVP or Endgame Raiding. There was nothing really todo beyond that to feel like you had a place in the game and that your playstyle was relivant. WoW was good mind you im not striking out at that game in perticular i just got sick and tired of that type of game.

Thats my take on it anyhows.

well some peeps seem to be obbesse on the wow part but i do find that in wow just before i left it became a case of haves and have nots. Todo anything it seemed you had to have completed the thing that was competative in the 1st place which is just backwards thinking. The people at the front got ahead and the people at the back went further behind.

 

Now i saw this from the odd perspective that i was actually at the front of the group and not the back and actualy felt bad for the peeps who were being left behind. There was just no middleground in it if you know what i mean.

 

So i dont think its just the freedom which is important but also the fact you arnt railroaded into specific specs or builds, have specific armour etc to enjoy the aspect of the game your after. Because on wow generally you had 2 roads to follow. Endgame PVP or Endgame Raiding. There was nothing really todo beyond that to feel like you had a place in the game and that your playstyle was relivant. WoW was good mind you im not striking out at that game in perticular i just got sick and tired of that type of game.

 

Thats my take on it anyhows.

I understand. And my first post made no mention of WoW if you read it...lol. The feeling of "the haves and have nots" will allways be a factor in any MMO. Not everyone will have the desire or time to play any MMO to the highest level possible. So the level at which you will compare the haves and have nots will depend also on what "you" want to experence. Not everyone will share that same goal.

And even tho you donot like the comparison of WoW to TOR, you invite such comparisons by the very subject of the post. It still remains in that MMO ( WoW ) and others ( Rift comes to mind ) you have more freedom of choices than you do in TOR. And different ways to get to experence what you want to experence. TOR is by comparison too much a "On the Rail " type game.

There is still hope for SWTOR if they change direction. F2P might save this in the short term but longer term it wont as there is just NOTHING to do apart from the same linear flashpoints/warzones/quests.

Jake Nerri who was Producer on this game until LucasArts handed everything over to EA was also the mind behind bringing BACK dozens of features in SWG that were removed with NGE. With his vision, it probably allowed SWG to keep going as a PAID to play right up until EA demanded it be closed down. I am certain this game can be turned around with his guidance - Makeb being that opportunity.

If that planet turns out to be just as linear as the rest of the game, shut the servers down and admit your failings.

I understand. And my first post made no mention of WoW if you read it...lol.

my post wasnt comparing tor to wow if you read it and i wasnt refering to your 1st post, i was stating why i got sick of wow and the pure thempark aspect. but if you think your not rail roaded in wow i do have to disagree with you, yes in tor i might be railed roaded in my story and endgame to the same degree as wow right now, the aspect of space that is coming and that this game is relativly new means that this game isnt regimented in how it will be playable within a years time from this date or how it will be played in 3 years time. FYI that last bit was me comparing wow to tor just so you know so lets get back on topic.

freedom

kind of side related, more and more games seem to leave out non-essential areas and just cut it to areas of interest.

tube maps dragon age 2 style and swtor suffers from that as well.

extreme example being here:

http://guides.gamepressure.com/dragonageiilegacy/gfx/word/622181906.jpg

I would very much like to enter a staircase of a skyscraper on corellia and just climb the roof, if you know what I mean.

my post wasnt comparing tor to wow if you read it and i wasnt refering to your 1st post, i was stating why i got sick of wow and the pure thempark aspect. but if you think your not rail roaded in wow i do have to disagree with you, yes in tor i might be railed roaded in my story and endgame to the same degree as wow right now, the aspect of space that is coming and that this game is relativly new means that this game isnt regimented in how it will be playable within a years time from this date or how it will be played in 3 years time. FYI that last bit was me comparing wow to tor just so you know so lets get back on topic.

You said in your first post..."What do you think the lessons learned from different aspects of sandbox/themepark gameplay could be seen within swtor. Be it playerhousing, player created quests or basically anything else you can think of that relates to games in general along sandbox/themepark aspects."...by that statement you are leaving open for those who think WoW is not like TOR in reference to sandbox/themepark espects and why they think so. And we have not got off the topic by bringing up WoW. You want to have a open discussion about MMO's in relationship with thier sandbox/themepark aspects you have to accept some will bring up a very popular and well known MMO.

You said in your first post..."What do you think the lessons learned from different aspects of sandbox/themepark gameplay could be seen within swtor. Be it playerhousing, player created quests or basically anything else you can think of that relates to games in general along sandbox/themepark aspects."...by that statement you are leaving open for those who think WoW is not like TOR in reference to sandbox/themepark espects and why they think so. And we have not got off the topic by bringing up WoW. You want to have a open discussion about MMO's in relationship with thier sandbox/themepark aspects you have to accept some will bring up a very popular and well known MMO.

I have also reference, sto, rift, war and many others, im refering to not going in a debate about wow has this or wow has that and tor has this so its lacking. thus throwing back and forth that wow is mainstream and thus can be discussed is off topic which is what you were trying todo by stating you never said anything about wow which i never said you had or that its not ok to talk about which is something i never said either. thus off topic.

kind of side related, more and more games seem to leave out non-essential areas and just cut it to areas of interest.

tube maps dragon age 2 style and swtor suffers from that as well.

 

extreme example being here:

 

http://guides.gamepressure.com/dragonageiilegacy/gfx/word/622181906.jpg

 

I would very much like to enter a staircase of a skyscraper on corellia and just climb the roof, if you know what I mean.

I do, the feeling that your exploring, even if it goes no where the option to go off the beaten track is appealing as you never know what you might find.

I have also reference, sto, rift, war and many others, im refering to not going in a debate about wow has this or wow has that and tor has this so its lacking. thus throwing back and forth that wow is mainstream and thus can be discussed is off topic which is what you were trying todo by stating you never said anything about wow which i never said you had or that its not ok to talk about which is something i never said either. thus off topic.

Lol! I give up. Enjoy your pro TOR thread.

Hybrid MMO's that support both characteristics of Theme Park (20+Raids/dungeons/solo instances/16 and lower operations/pvp warzones/story questlines) and Sandbox (Dynamic changes in game, random world events per zone, player generated content via crafting/housing wars/ open world pvp for resources // land dominance) is the only future. More developers need to take from both worlds and mash them together.

If SWTOR taught future MMO designers anything: It's stay away from the old game plan. MMO players are sick of the same boring Theme park design.