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Acceptable Threat Numbers For Healer


DiLune's Avatar


DiLune
07.20.2012 , 12:38 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Capt_Beers View Post
My heals can reach 30m so getting within 15 seems a little unnecessarily close for me. It helps to stay out of AoE's being further away and for some reason people love standing in them so it makes easier on me to only have to heal 3 people instead of 4.
The 15m range is only for PvP (the 50% shared dmg vs enemy players, not NPCs.) The threat reduction and DR are effective regardless of range.

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Capt_Beers
07.20.2012 , 12:44 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DiLune View Post
The 15m range is only for PvP (the 50% shared dmg vs enemy players, not NPCs.) The threat reduction and DR are effective regardless of range.
That is a very useful piece of information. Thanks!
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Mavery
07.20.2012 , 12:46 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by DiLune View Post
Again, 5% DR is nada for a DPS in a HM FP. If he's 3% away from dying the healer wasn't healing him regardless. And if he isn't ripping agro...he doesn't need it. The statement "never put guard on a healer" is ignorant in so many ways. Is it always correct to put it on the healer? No. Is it always correct to put it on the melee DPS? No. Both are equally ignorant and equally lazy.

Ops are different, but we aren't talking Ops, we are talking HM FPs.
Really? I thought 5% was 5% not 0. Guess I'm wrong...

You really haven't run the numbers, have you?

Even if we assume that healer threat gen = DPS threat gen. Which it's not. DPS is always higher. But even if it is... anyone who it outside of "melee range" requires 130% threat to take aggro versus 110% to those in melee range. Therefore melee DPS even when threat generation is equal will always generate more effective threat.

So why wouldn't you put guard on the top threat generator? C'mon, don't be silly.

edit: To add: MDPS are in melee range (and thus suspectible to cleave and / or AOE) while healers are not. There's stuff to avoid at ranged, but much less than melee. Wouldn't a DR be more effective on someone who has the higher chance to take more damage? Logic says so.

KBSIP's Avatar


KBSIP
07.20.2012 , 01:51 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by DiLune View Post
This one again? For the love of...

I am a tank. I guard my healer. Why? The DPS isn't pulling agro from me. If he, as a healer, is pulling agro...then he NEEDS guard on him. If the tank is holding agro, then he doesn't, but if the tank isn't losing agro to anyone...might as well guard the healer. Its a HM FP where 5% DR isn't saving your DPS because if they get to that point, the healer wasn't about to heal them anyway.

What is with the aversion to guarding healers?
come into a flashpoint with me. I'll give you 15 seconds on a boss, and then out threat you with my opening burst chains. you'll taunt off, I'll continue to build to out threating you. I have no aggro dumps, so if you don't like it and don't want to put guard on me thats too bad

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pudim
07.20.2012 , 01:56 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by DiLune View Post
Again, 5% DR is nada for a DPS in a HM FP. If he's 3% away from dying the healer wasn't healing him regardless. And if he isn't ripping agro...he doesn't need it. The statement "never put guard on a healer" is ignorant in so many ways. Is it always correct to put it on the healer? No. Is it always correct to put it on the melee DPS? No. Both are equally ignorant and equally lazy.

Ops are different, but we aren't talking Ops, we are talking HM FPs.
As a healer I completely agree with you
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cshouston's Avatar


cshouston
07.20.2012 , 02:05 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by DiLune View Post
The 15m range is only for PvP (the 50% shared dmg vs enemy players, not NPCs.) The threat reduction and DR are effective regardless of range.
Please provide some proof to back up this claim. I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Also, as a tank that has extensive experience in every facet of this game so far, I can tell you right now that guarding the healer is pointless. If somehow I miss a mob in my initial grab on a trash pack, and it attacks the healer, I can usually get its attention back with a simple auto attack if nothing else were available. If loose mobs are attacking the healer, a guard won't make the difference... you just have a bad tank.

Tank threat is 2 per point of damage. Healing generates .5 threat per point of healing (not factoring talents which reduce aggro). Pulling aggro at range requires 130% of the current target's threat.

If a healer is taking threat from a tank, THE TANK IS BAD.

DiLune's Avatar


DiLune
07.20.2012 , 02:10 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KBSIP View Post
come into a flashpoint with me. I'll give you 15 seconds on a boss, and then out threat you with my opening burst chains. you'll taunt off, I'll continue to build to out threating you. I have no aggro dumps, so if you don't like it and don't want to put guard on me thats too bad
You're on. If you're on shadowlands give Paxrandan a shout. I'm not even the best tank out there, but I do know a thing or two about MMO threat. This isn't my first rodeo.

And frankly, if I were in a flashpoint with you and you WERE ripping agro (as I've said ad nauseum) I would guard you. But, given that it isn't happening in any HM (including LI) I am just not worried about it.

To someone else, if I am with you in, say, HM FE and your DPS is down at 3% health...what do you think happened? Do you think "good thing he had guard on me or I would be dead" or do you think "why isn't the healer healing me at all?" (which would follow "why are all these mobs running loose and why am I standing in the fire?") If you weren't ripping agro from me (which has been the qualifier I have been using the whole time) then the 5% DR means NOTHING in an HM FP. I would rather have my (at that point) useless guard on the healer to save him any small annoyance of getting agro from a lightly "threated" mob than actually, foolishly, believe 5% DR does anything for a DPS.

But if you're ripping agro from me...then yeah I'll guard you. But it just ain't happening to me.

DiLune's Avatar


DiLune
07.20.2012 , 02:13 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by cshouston View Post
Please provide some proof to back up this claim. I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Also, as a tank that has extensive experience in every facet of this game so far, I can tell you right now that guarding the healer is pointless. If somehow I miss a mob in my initial grab on a trash pack, and it attacks the healer, I can usually get its attention back with a simple auto attack if nothing else were available. If loose mobs are attacking the healer, a guard won't make the difference... you just have a bad tank.

Tank threat is 2 per point of damage. Healing generates .5 threat per point of healing (not factoring talents which reduce aggro). Pulling aggro at range requires 130% of the current target's threat.

If a healer is taking threat from a tank, THE TANK IS BAD.
The proof is in the wording of the ability. Assuming they followed standard English language guidelines.

So answer me this: The unguarded DPS isn't getting agro from you. No one but you is taking enough damage to sink them below 50% HP. Who needs guard the most?

The answer is no one. So if no one needs it, who is the one person you don't want to have agro under any circumstances no matter how unlikely? The answer isn't melee DPS.

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cshouston
07.20.2012 , 02:25 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by DiLune View Post
The proof is in the wording of the ability. Assuming they followed standard English language guidelines.

So answer me this: The unguarded DPS isn't getting agro from you. No one but you is taking enough damage to sink them below 50% HP. Who needs guard the most?

The answer is no one. So if no one needs it, who is the one person you don't want to have agro under any circumstances no matter how unlikely? The answer isn't melee DPS.
Fair enough on the first point. I've never bothered to guard ranged folks since threat is .8 per damage at range.

The answer IS melee dps. They only need to surpass me by 110% to rip aggro (vs 130% for ranged as previously mentioned), and if one of our Marauders decides to pop bloodlust, cooldowns, and an adrenal right from the start, that's likely to happen. Having guard on him *allows* him that luxury on the fights where it's beneficial, without risking him pulling off of me.

Seriously, unless you FLAT OUT just can't get a hit off on every mob within the first 10-15 seconds of a fight(e.g. you're BAD), nothing should be going after your healer.

Also, since you insist nothing else matters in this conversation but HM FPs, is it not possible for a tank to have melee DPS that outgears him or her in a group? I guarantee you that a Campaign geared Marauder would rip aggro off a Columi geared tank in a heartbeat.

DiLune's Avatar


DiLune
07.20.2012 , 02:29 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by cshouston View Post
Fair enough on the first point. I've never bothered to guard ranged folks since threat is .8 per damage at range.

The answer IS melee dps. They only need to surpass me by 110% to rip aggro (vs 130% for ranged as previously mentioned), and if one of our Marauders decides to pop bloodlust, cooldowns, and an adrenal right from the start, that's likely to happen. Having guard on him *allows* him that luxury on the fights where it's beneficial, without risking him pulling off of me.

Seriously, unless you FLAT OUT just can't get a hit off on every mob within the first 10-15 seconds of a fight(e.g. you're BAD), nothing should be going after your healer.
As a Jugg tank I will dispute you on that. The melee DPS should be killing the normals as is, effectively offtanking them. If I'm running around hitting everthing then I am getting agro on nothing that matters.

And I will say it again: If a melee DPS is ripping agro he gets the guard. If he isn't...it doesn't matter who gets the guard so I default to the healer, who can get healing agro from something, for example, that I hit with my saber assuming that the DPS are going to kill it before its a problem. If they don't get to it then they are the problem. If they are starting off DPS on the gold, then they are the problem.

If everyone is doing their job in an HM FP, then you can do the whole thing without guard because it will never really matter.

And I am not insisting on only talking about HM FP's. The OP is about HM FP's. I am trying to give him advice on dealing with his problem. And I have said, over and over and over, that if a DPS rips agro from me he suddenly become guarded. If not, the default is the healer. If a DPS takes exception to that then he is welcome to make me guard him. He should see it more as me telling him he's not good enough so he can prove me wrong than any failure on my part.

And since I'm BH geared...It really hasn't been a problem for me. In fact, because its an HM FP and I have stats up the wazoo, I actually use a little gear to up my DPS, which ups my threat, doesn't really hurt my survivability and clears things even faster than before since even my healers are DPSing more than healing.

But that's an FP, not an OP (well, HM KP and EV are pretty faceroll as well.)