Since the release of the Group Finder tool I have been doing a lot more FP's. The quality of my gear has also gone way up (thanks for the BH comms BioWare, love it!). I now find myself in FP's where as the healer I sometimes have 2 or 3k health more than the tank and about 2 tiers of gear above. I also find myself drawing a lot of attention from mobs.

So yesterday I got SWmoniTOR and ran the parser while I did an FP and found that once I would get into my rotation healing everyone I was generating about 1.1k threat on average (the highest was 1.3k). Is that high? I don't know what the tank was generating because it was a random FP and we didn't sync up but from people's experience is that acceptable? It's not always isolated to tanks/players that have less gear than me sometimes I'll pull aggro right off a similarly geared tank with a couple of heals.

Does anyone have any advice on this?

I chuckled when I read that because people are currently (some) complaining that tanks Guard their healer.

Have your tank guard you. Also, make sure the DPS are picking up the random normal mobs in a pack. SWTOR tanks often don't (the tank dynamics are somewhat different from the traditional WoW "gather them all up" model.) They leave it up to the DPS to burn down the normals and then work up through silver/gold/etc.

 

So yesterday I got SWmoniTOR and ran the parser while I did an FP and found that once I would get into my rotation healing everyone I was generating about 1.1k threat on average (the highest was 1.3k). Is that high?

No, that's not high. Tanks should be pulling roughly 2k tps. An 'undergeared' one should be at 1.5k at the worst. Throw in taunts/etc.. and you're fine.

PLEASE, don't ask for guard. If so, be understanding if you're removed from the group.

No, that's not high. Tanks should be pulling roughly 2k tps. An 'undergeared' one should be at 1.5k at the worst. Throw in taunts/etc.. and you're fine.

 

PLEASE, don't ask for guard. If so, be understanding if you're removed from the group.

This one again? For the love of...

I am a tank. I guard my healer. Why? The DPS isn't pulling agro from me. If he, as a healer, is pulling agro...then he NEEDS guard on him. If the tank is holding agro, then he doesn't, but if the tank isn't losing agro to anyone...might as well guard the healer. Its a HM FP where 5% DR isn't saving your DPS because if they get to that point, the healer wasn't about to heal them anyway.

What is with the aversion to guarding healers?

The DPS isn't pulling agro from me. If he, as a healer, is pulling agro...then he NEEDS guard on him.

 

What is with the aversion to guarding healers?

That means your dps is bad. DPS should be able to top over 2k tps, especially on trash packs. The fact that, in a flash point, your dps aren't pulling aggro isn't a sign of your amazing abilities as a tank. It's a sign of their sub-par DPS abilities. If the healer is able to out TPS BOTH dps in a FP, I'd either 1) leave myself or 2) kick both DPS. If you enjoy tanking FPs with DPS doing under 1k DPS at PEAK... have fun.

This is why the aversion to guarding healers.

That means your dps is bad. DPS should be able to top over 2k tps, especially on trash packs. The fact that, in a flash point, your dps aren't pulling aggro isn't a sign of your amazing abilities as a tank. It's a sign of their sub-par DPS abilities. If the healer is able to out TPS BOTH dps in a FP, I'd either 1) leave myself or 2) kick both DPS. If you enjoy tanking FPs with DPS doing under 1k DPS at PEAK... have fun.

 

This is why the aversion to guarding healers.

Well, by your math, if I guard one DPS I should ALWAYS lose threat to the other DPS, right? But that doesn't happen. Why? Because you're wrong. You were right a month ago when the gear differential was greater. But now that it isn't...I'm not losing agro. This game is all gear (and some skill.) Now, a fully campaign geared DPS randomly showing up in an HM FP? Yeah, I probably guard him.

But that takes a brain, not an internet theory lesson.

If a healer is pulling aggro it comes down to one thing: the tank has dropped the ball somehow.

There is NO reason to guard a healer. It's a waste of the skill. it should go to a DPS, preferably a melee DPS (they generate higher threat due to proximity to the mob). In addition, the -5% damage reduction benefits a melee DPS the most.

Whenever i see guard on a healer it's a sign the tank has no idea what he or she is doing. Please don't do it. It's a waste.

Thanks for the replies/ advice! I'm not sure if I was guarded during the times I pulled aggro I'll have be more aware of this in the future. Good to know I'm not over doing it and making life difficult for the tank. Although I have noticed trauma probe is a great way to pull adds/nutaunted trash. Once the tank leaps in and and activates that first tick on TP everyone is coming for me.

As for asking for guard I never do that. I always give the tank the benefit of the doubt at first and assume they know what they're doing and if they're not guarding me they have a reason. I'm also not a fan of having to be so close to the fight. My heals can reach 30m so getting within 15 seems a little unnecessarily close for me. It helps to stay out of AoE's being further away and for some reason people love standing in them so it makes easier on me to only have to heal 3 people instead of 4.

If a healer is pulling aggro it comes down to one thing: the tank has dropped the ball somehow.

 

There is NO reason to guard a healer. It's a waste of the skill. it should go to a DPS, preferably a melee DPS (they generate higher threat due to proximity to the mob). In addition, the -5% damage reduction benefits a melee DPS the most.

 

Whenever i see guard on a healer it's a sign the tank has no idea what he or she is doing. Please don't do it. It's a waste.

Again, 5% DR is nada for a DPS in a HM FP. If he's 3% away from dying the healer wasn't healing him regardless. And if he isn't ripping agro...he doesn't need it. The statement "never put guard on a healer" is ignorant in so many ways. Is it always correct to put it on the healer? No. Is it always correct to put it on the melee DPS? No. Both are equally ignorant and equally lazy.

Ops are different, but we aren't talking Ops, we are talking HM FPs.

My heals can reach 30m so getting within 15 seems a little unnecessarily close for me. It helps to stay out of AoE's being further away and for some reason people love standing in them so it makes easier on me to only have to heal 3 people instead of 4.

The 15m range is only for PvP (the 50% shared dmg vs enemy players, not NPCs.) The threat reduction and DR are effective regardless of range.

The 15m range is only for PvP (the 50% shared dmg vs enemy players, not NPCs.) The threat reduction and DR are effective regardless of range.

That is a very useful piece of information. Thanks!

Again, 5% DR is nada for a DPS in a HM FP. If he's 3% away from dying the healer wasn't healing him regardless. And if he isn't ripping agro...he doesn't need it. The statement "never put guard on a healer" is ignorant in so many ways. Is it always correct to put it on the healer? No. Is it always correct to put it on the melee DPS? No. Both are equally ignorant and equally lazy.

 

Ops are different, but we aren't talking Ops, we are talking HM FPs.

Really? I thought 5% was 5% not 0. Guess I'm wrong...

You really haven't run the numbers, have you?

Even if we assume that healer threat gen = DPS threat gen. Which it's not. DPS is always higher. But even if it is... anyone who it outside of "melee range" requires 130% threat to take aggro versus 110% to those in melee range. Therefore melee DPS even when threat generation is equal will always generate more effective threat.

So why wouldn't you put guard on the top threat generator? C'mon, don't be silly.

edit: To add: MDPS are in melee range (and thus suspectible to cleave and / or AOE) while healers are not. There's stuff to avoid at ranged, but much less than melee. Wouldn't a DR be more effective on someone who has the higher chance to take more damage? Logic says so.

This one again? For the love of...

 

I am a tank. I guard my healer. Why? The DPS isn't pulling agro from me. If he, as a healer, is pulling agro...then he NEEDS guard on him. If the tank is holding agro, then he doesn't, but if the tank isn't losing agro to anyone...might as well guard the healer. Its a HM FP where 5% DR isn't saving your DPS because if they get to that point, the healer wasn't about to heal them anyway.

 

What is with the aversion to guarding healers?

come into a flashpoint with me. I'll give you 15 seconds on a boss, and then out threat you with my opening burst chains. you'll taunt off, I'll continue to build to out threating you. I have no aggro dumps, so if you don't like it and don't want to put guard on me thats too bad

Again, 5% DR is nada for a DPS in a HM FP. If he's 3% away from dying the healer wasn't healing him regardless. And if he isn't ripping agro...he doesn't need it. The statement "never put guard on a healer" is ignorant in so many ways. Is it always correct to put it on the healer? No. Is it always correct to put it on the melee DPS? No. Both are equally ignorant and equally lazy.

 

Ops are different, but we aren't talking Ops, we are talking HM FPs.

As a healer I completely agree with you

The 15m range is only for PvP (the 50% shared dmg vs enemy players, not NPCs.) The threat reduction and DR are effective regardless of range.

Please provide some proof to back up this claim. I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Also, as a tank that has extensive experience in every facet of this game so far, I can tell you right now that guarding the healer is pointless. If somehow I miss a mob in my initial grab on a trash pack, and it attacks the healer, I can usually get its attention back with a simple auto attack if nothing else were available. If loose mobs are attacking the healer, a guard won't make the difference... you just have a bad tank.

Tank threat is 2 per point of damage. Healing generates .5 threat per point of healing (not factoring talents which reduce aggro). Pulling aggro at range requires 130% of the current target's threat.

If a healer is taking threat from a tank, THE TANK IS BAD.

come into a flashpoint with me. I'll give you 15 seconds on a boss, and then out threat you with my opening burst chains. you'll taunt off, I'll continue to build to out threating you. I have no aggro dumps, so if you don't like it and don't want to put guard on me thats too bad

You're on. If you're on shadowlands give Paxrandan a shout. I'm not even the best tank out there, but I do know a thing or two about MMO threat. This isn't my first rodeo.

And frankly, if I were in a flashpoint with you and you WERE ripping agro (as I've said ad nauseum) I would guard you. But, given that it isn't happening in any HM (including LI) I am just not worried about it.

To someone else, if I am with you in, say, HM FE and your DPS is down at 3% health...what do you think happened? Do you think "good thing he had guard on me or I would be dead" or do you think "why isn't the healer healing me at all?" (which would follow "why are all these mobs running loose and why am I standing in the fire?") If you weren't ripping agro from me (which has been the qualifier I have been using the whole time) then the 5% DR means NOTHING in an HM FP. I would rather have my (at that point) useless guard on the healer to save him any small annoyance of getting agro from a lightly "threated" mob than actually, foolishly, believe 5% DR does anything for a DPS.

But if you're ripping agro from me...then yeah I'll guard you. But it just ain't happening to me.

Please provide some proof to back up this claim. I'm pretty sure that's not true.

 

Also, as a tank that has extensive experience in every facet of this game so far, I can tell you right now that guarding the healer is pointless. If somehow I miss a mob in my initial grab on a trash pack, and it attacks the healer, I can usually get its attention back with a simple auto attack if nothing else were available. If loose mobs are attacking the healer, a guard won't make the difference... you just have a bad tank.

 

Tank threat is 2 per point of damage. Healing generates .5 threat per point of healing (not factoring talents which reduce aggro). Pulling aggro at range requires 130% of the current target's threat.

 

If a healer is taking threat from a tank, THE TANK IS BAD.

The proof is in the wording of the ability. Assuming they followed standard English language guidelines.

So answer me this: The unguarded DPS isn't getting agro from you. No one but you is taking enough damage to sink them below 50% HP. Who needs guard the most?

The answer is no one. So if no one needs it, who is the one person you don't want to have agro under any circumstances no matter how unlikely? The answer isn't melee DPS.

The proof is in the wording of the ability. Assuming they followed standard English language guidelines.

 

So answer me this: The unguarded DPS isn't getting agro from you. No one but you is taking enough damage to sink them below 50% HP. Who needs guard the most?

 

The answer is no one. So if no one needs it, who is the one person you don't want to have agro under any circumstances no matter how unlikely? The answer isn't melee DPS.

Fair enough on the first point. I've never bothered to guard ranged folks since threat is .8 per damage at range.

The answer IS melee dps. They only need to surpass me by 110% to rip aggro (vs 130% for ranged as previously mentioned), and if one of our Marauders decides to pop bloodlust, cooldowns, and an adrenal right from the start, that's likely to happen. Having guard on him *allows* him that luxury on the fights where it's beneficial, without risking him pulling off of me.

Seriously, unless you FLAT OUT just can't get a hit off on every mob within the first 10-15 seconds of a fight(e.g. you're BAD), nothing should be going after your healer.

Also, since you insist nothing else matters in this conversation but HM FPs, is it not possible for a tank to have melee DPS that outgears him or her in a group? I guarantee you that a Campaign geared Marauder would rip aggro off a Columi geared tank in a heartbeat.

Fair enough on the first point. I've never bothered to guard ranged folks since threat is .8 per damage at range.

 

The answer IS melee dps. They only need to surpass me by 110% to rip aggro (vs 130% for ranged as previously mentioned), and if one of our Marauders decides to pop bloodlust, cooldowns, and an adrenal right from the start, that's likely to happen. Having guard on him *allows* him that luxury on the fights where it's beneficial, without risking him pulling off of me.

 

Seriously, unless you FLAT OUT just can't get a hit off on every mob within the first 10-15 seconds of a fight(e.g. you're BAD), nothing should be going after your healer.

As a Jugg tank I will dispute you on that. The melee DPS should be killing the normals as is, effectively offtanking them. If I'm running around hitting everthing then I am getting agro on nothing that matters.

And I will say it again: If a melee DPS is ripping agro he gets the guard. If he isn't...it doesn't matter who gets the guard so I default to the healer, who can get healing agro from something, for example, that I hit with my saber assuming that the DPS are going to kill it before its a problem. If they don't get to it then they are the problem. If they are starting off DPS on the gold, then they are the problem.

If everyone is doing their job in an HM FP, then you can do the whole thing without guard because it will never really matter.

And I am not insisting on only talking about HM FP's. The OP is about HM FP's. I am trying to give him advice on dealing with his problem. And I have said, over and over and over, that if a DPS rips agro from me he suddenly become guarded. If not, the default is the healer. If a DPS takes exception to that then he is welcome to make me guard him. He should see it more as me telling him he's not good enough so he can prove me wrong than any failure on my part.

And since I'm BH geared...It really hasn't been a problem for me. In fact, because its an HM FP and I have stats up the wazoo, I actually use a little gear to up my DPS, which ups my threat, doesn't really hurt my survivability and clears things even faster than before since even my healers are DPSing more than healing.

But that's an FP, not an OP (well, HM KP and EV are pretty faceroll as well.)

I am a tank. I guard my healer. Why? The DPS isn't pulling agro from me. If he, as a healer, is pulling agro...then he NEEDS guard on him.

I 100% agree with you, the person pulling mobs off of the tank is the one who needs guard.

That said, I have never seen a healer pull a mob off a tank unless the tank sucked or was afk. On the other hand, as a good DPSer I am able to pull them off most pug tanks at whim.

Healers only generate threat based on the amount actually healed, not on how much the spell could have healed (simply put over healing is ignored for threat). Given healer threat reductions and tank threat bonuses, a tank really needs to be doing such little threat to keep ahead of healers.

come into a flashpoint with me. I'll give you 15 seconds on a boss, and then out threat you with my opening burst chains. you'll taunt off, I'll continue to build to out threating you. I have no aggro dumps, so if you don't like it and don't want to put guard on me thats too bad

Please don't do that as it will make your healer's life very difficult .

If you're worried about pull extra threat from overhealing... lay back on your heals a bit... sometimes i wont cast an heal until the tank is at 60 or 50% life if i know that the heal if it crits would fill them up to 90-100%.

On a side note if you are geared well, help dps down the normal mobs. My operative is able to one shot most normals when explosive probe crits, Others die usually from a backstab and shiv rather quickly as well.

I have been playing a healer as my main since release and have done a lot of HM FPs. Some of them with guard on me and some without. And to be honest, it seems like it makes absolutely no difference if Im guarded or not. If the tank knows what he is doing, there is no way I can pull aggro. Aggro is a mechanic I completely ignore as a healer. I do have a aggro dump, but to be honest I can't remember the last time I used it. The only time I ever pull aggro is if there are mobs the DPS or tank haven't dealt a few hits.

I think its fine to guard the healer if he actually is pulling aggro, but by default I would certainly guard a DPS. Especially sentinels seem to be pulling a lot of aggro (I have no numbers to back up that statement, to me it just seem like they pull aggro from the tank more often than the other classes based on the amount of healing I often end up doing on them).