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Why do tanks put Guard on healers in PvE?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Why do tanks put Guard on healers in PvE?

iDraxter's Avatar


iDraxter
07.24.2012 , 07:18 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by dcgregorya View Post
We guard melee DPS - not healers. You are correct, adds will always go against healers if no one attacks them.
This
My jaw hits the floor when I random queue for my daily hard modes and the healer tells me to put guard on him, I usually tell them they pvp to much cuz that's the only place they should see guard on them, seriously 2 nights ago I actually had to spend time arguing with a guy that doesn't play tanks .
I have a lvl 50 PT, lvl 50 jugg and a lvl 21 sin all tanks I think I know what I m doing.

Vaizrin's Avatar


Vaizrin
07.24.2012 , 08:38 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by iDraxter View Post
This
My jaw hits the floor when I random queue for my daily hard modes and the healer tells me to put guard on him, I usually tell them they pvp to much cuz that's the only place they should see guard on them, seriously 2 nights ago I actually had to spend time arguing with a guy that doesn't play tanks .
I have a lvl 50 PT, lvl 50 jugg and a lvl 21 sin all tanks I think I know what I m doing.
Now I agree it's up to the tank to decide who gets guarded, what I disagree on is your mentality. You're being stubborn, as an endgame PVE player I know for a fact there are fewer reasons now to guard a dps than a healer.


Let's break it down.
Boss fights: Dps is guarded, generally the top dps. Why? The way threat mechanics work you're blowing tons of potential threat! Remember our taunts boost us anywhere from 110%-130% threat. That dps going crazy fuels your threat higher. Nerf their threat and you Nerf your own.

Trash pulls: Dps is guarded and attacking weakest mobs. Great. Until a pat walks into your healer / a random AoE unfortunately knocks player x into mobs. Guess who gets lots of Agro? Not the dps. It all goes to the healer, Sonia you have to snap enough threat on all of them. What if your taunts are on cd? It won't be easy pulling threat off of massive AoE heals or large single crits.

What happens when a dps pulls threat? Nothing. I've never had a wipe because dps kept pulling threat. I have seen many times where I am ammo starved trying to pull every mob off the healer because they are too spread out / ranged for AoE threat and I have to ion pulse each mob.

I'm a full Rakata / BH Vanguard and I've cleared all the content in the game except 16 man content. Guarding dps is a waste of threat and nothing else. The only time it's needed is when they outgear you.
Rock em sock em robots.

iDraxter's Avatar


iDraxter
07.24.2012 , 11:25 AM | #23
So how often does this random healer gets kb on a random group of mobs? I m sorry but that is bad positioning by your healer or maybe he wasn't aware those mobs can kb then that means we got a new comer. But any how did a mob get pass the tank and dps???? If your healer pulls threat off your doing it wrong ow and in case nobody hit a target and it is going for the healer no big deal there are threat dart, its on cd? Grapple, your a jugg intercede, that on cd too then throw a stun, your on skype or teamspeak or what ever tell the dps to stun that target or tell the healer to kb the target all this just to buy time for cd, play smart.

And I fail to see how my guard keeps the healer alive (5% dmg red)in your scenario if(ever) it happens I would throw aoe threat skill or jump in there and aoe stun then hiting them with aoe to keep threat and yes using defensive cds
If we wiped cuz of 2 packs of mobs how is that my fault that 1 of the members had bad positioning why wasn't he at 20-30meters

Vaizrin's Avatar


Vaizrin
07.24.2012 , 12:19 PM | #24
Maybe I failed to explain my points so I'll boil it down to the essence.

Why do you guard dps? Do they pull Agro on random mobs? Do you ever need to pull off a dps? No. You taunt off a dps because that gives you an Agro lead. Dps can handle damage from bosses let alone a champion in a flashpoint. Healers can't heal as efficiently the second 1 ranged mob starts to hit them. Dps will encounter no issues.

The healer should be guarded at all times because if for any reason there are any errors the healer will be the first to Agro. If you can't understand why that's important than clearly you aren't understanding the issue. A healer that has been guarded can easily have threat ripped off them, in your world of perfection that wouldn't be an issue but after having pugged 100+ hms I can tell you right now that never works out. Healers need the 5% damage reduction and the 25% threat reduction. You said 5% is useless? What about when they pop CDs? Definsive buffs stack together to make incoming damage a joke.

Let me remind you of something. As a tank, endurance is your best bet when you want to increase time to live. Shield, defense, nothing adds more to you time to live than endurance. Until you add in heals. At that point as long as hps=dps-mps you will = alive. The healer is the most crucial component to your team, without one you can't win.

Let me try to sum this up for you: guard a dps - you lose threat and the gain 5% dr. Guard a healer - they lose threat and gain 5% dr.

If that still doesn't make sense to you, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Clearly you have threat issues with Dps and I don't, so why would I ever guard a dps when it's the healers life that determines whether or not the group succeeds.

Sorry that got a bit ranty, my phone is annoying to type on.
Rock em sock em robots.

DiLune's Avatar


DiLune
07.24.2012 , 02:37 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaizrin View Post
Sorry that got a bit ranty, my phone is annoying to type on.
For what its worth, I've fought this fight before and I agree with you.

If all else is equal, guard the healer. If your DPS continues to pull agro off of you, guard the DPS. If you're in a HM FP, 5% DR won't matter to a DPS because the healer was never going to heal them anyway. If you're in an HM OP where 5% DR might make a difference between life and death for a DPS, guard the DPS.

But default should be the healer for every reason you've explained. Anyone saying there is a one-size fits all answer (always guard the healer or always guard the DPS) is just blowing hot air.

Vaizrin's Avatar


Vaizrin
07.24.2012 , 02:55 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by DiLune View Post
For what its worth, I've fought this fight before and I agree with you.

If all else is equal, guard the healer. If your DPS continues to pull agro off of you, guard the DPS. If you're in a HM FP, 5% DR won't matter to a DPS because the healer was never going to heal them anyway. If you're in an HM OP where 5% DR might make a difference between life and death for a DPS, guard the DPS.

But default should be the healer for every reason you've explained. Anyone saying there is a one-size fits all answer (always guard the healer or always guard the DPS) is just blowing hot air.
Thank you, it lets me know I'm at least making sense. It is amazing how rigid the player group of this game is -_- I have to deal with it constantly in pugs.
Rock em sock em robots.

Daskillz's Avatar


Daskillz
07.24.2012 , 03:01 PM | #27
As a tank I tend to guard the healer because one I know my threat is good enough to hold aggro off of the dps in the group most of the time. If I notice that a dps is really pulling off of me then ofc they receive the guard. I always hit any mob I can when I pull so the "uncontrolled mobs" don't go for the healer. I usually hope that the dps will kill them right away but it doesn't keep me from understanding that it is my job to pick everything up and protect the healer and dps from damage.

When I tank I automatically assume the the dps in the group are retarded until proven competent. If you goto a pug and expect dps to do things without you telling them then ofc you will get annoyed.

ImmortalAlien's Avatar


ImmortalAlien
07.24.2012 , 04:12 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaizrin View Post
Trash pulls: Dps is guarded and attacking weakest mobs. Great. Until a pat walks into your healer / a random AoE unfortunately knocks player x into mobs. Guess who gets lots of Agro? Not the dps. It all goes to the healer, Sonia you have to snap enough threat on all of them. What if your taunts are on cd? It won't be easy pulling threat off of massive AoE heals or large single crits.
Even with guard, the healer will pull aggro from anything not currently taunted or damaged. It's also not that hard to pull aggro from unguarded healers.

Assuming an unguarded healer not using threat dumps and has a generic 10% reduction in threat from talents:

Tanks: Disregarding high threat abilities and taunts, tanks need to do 22.5% of damage that healers have healed in range of the aggroed mob to match the healer's threat. The tank needs to burst 30% of the damage that the healer has healed in order to ensure that aggro transfers to the tank.

Guarded DPS: Again, disregarding high threat abilities and taunts, DPS with guard must do 60% points of damage of the healer's points of heals in order to match threat. The guarded DPS has to do 78% points of the healed points in damage in order to ensure that aggro transfers.

Unguarded DPS: This DPS will have to do 45% of the points of healing in damage in order to match the healer's threat, and then 58.5% of the points in healing in damage in order to ensure that aggro transfers.

How much DPS does each player need, then? Good healers, from what the combat logs in my raid group have shown, usually do HPS of 1400 to 1700. This means that:

Tanks: Need sustained 315 - 382.5 DPS to keep aggro away from healers, and then burst 420 - 510 DPS to rip aggro away from the healer.

Guarded DPS: Needs sustained 840 - 1020 DPS to keep aggro away from healers, then burst 1092 - 1326 DPS to ensure that aggro transfers.

Unguarded DPS: Needs sustained 630 - 765 DPS, and then burst 819 - 995 DPS to rip aggro off.

All those benchmarks are extremely easy to make for comparatively geared players to a healer doing 1400 - 1700 HPS, even for the guarded DPS. Essentially, there should be no reason anyone should have issue pulling aggro off of the healer unless the mob is ignored for a prolonged period of time (which is an extreme no-no).

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
07.24.2012 , 05:53 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaizrin View Post
Now I agree it's up to the tank to decide who gets guarded, what I disagree on is your mentality. You're being stubborn, as an endgame PVE player I know for a fact there are fewer reasons now to guard a dps than a healer.


Trash pulls: Dps is guarded and attacking weakest mobs. Great. Until a pat walks into your healer / a random AoE unfortunately knocks player x into mobs. Guess who gets lots of Agro? Not the dps. It all goes to the healer, Sonia you have to snap enough threat on all of them. What if your taunts are on cd? It won't be easy pulling threat off of massive AoE heals or large single crits.

What happens when a dps pulls threat? Nothing. I've never had a wipe because dps kept pulling threat. I have seen many times where I am ammo starved trying to pull every mob off the healer because they are too spread out / ranged for AoE threat and I have to ion pulse each mob.

I'm a full Rakata / BH Vanguard and I've cleared all the content in the game except 16 man content. Guarding dps is a waste of threat and nothing else. The only time it's needed is when they outgear you.
Heals only gain threat at 50% the rate of damage. They will always have aggro on the mobs no one is targeting because their pathetic threat is spread across all mobs and they will virtually never ever have aggro on any mob that is being targeted by anyone else because they simply do not generate enough threat to out aggro the worst dps in the group. Having guard on them will not change that. Whether you guard them or not they will have aggro on the mobs that no one is hitting and they will not have aggro on the mobs people are hitting.

Think of it this way. They already have their threat reduced by 50% just from game mechanics. Why do you think reducing it by 25% more will be significant.

I am not claiming that there isn't an argument to be made for guarding a healer in specific situations. You could claim that threat is trivial now and the damage reduction is more useful on the healer during trash pulls. I think that is a debatable point, but it makes more sense than this idea that guard is going to somehow save the healer from gaining aggro on mobs in trash pulls. Guarding a healer will not keep them from gaining aggro on spread out trash that no one is hitting. You can reduce their threat by 99% and they will still have more than the zero everyone else does because their threat is spread out amongst all mobs. The good news is that whether you guard them or not you can gain aggro on the spread out mobs by using almost any ability. Healing threat is really that trivial.

TL/DR
Using Guard on a healer during trash fights doesn't keep them from gaining aggro on the spread out trash and it is already stupidly easy to gain it back from them because the game mechanics already reduce their threat by far more than the Guard buff does. Guard will never make a significant difference in whether a healer has aggro or not during trash fights.

You can make the argument that it is sometimes better to guard a healer, but this isn't how you make that case.

DiLune's Avatar


DiLune
07.24.2012 , 06:01 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
TL/DR
Using Guard on a healer during trash fights doesn't keep them from gaining aggro on the spread out trash and it is already stupidly easy to gain it back from them because the game mechanics already reduce their threat by far more than the Guard buff does. Guard will never make a significant difference in whether a healer has aggro or not during trash fights.

You can make the argument that it is sometimes better to guard a healer, but this isn't how you make that case.
The issue is this: This same argument applies to DPS. In essence, the real answer to who do you need to guard? Nobody. It really, really doesn't matter, unless you are consistently losing agro to a DPS. So if it doesn't matter who you guard, who is the most important person to guard? To me, that default is the healer.

Now, there are times when you want to guard a DPS because of the mechanics of something, but that, to me, isn't the default.