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Why do tanks put Guard on healers in PvE?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Why do tanks put Guard on healers in PvE?

BlastingGravy's Avatar


BlastingGravy
07.19.2012 , 01:49 PM | #11
Before 1.3, I would have probably agreed with the OP. After 1.3, it's so laughably easy to maintain threat that the threat reduction of guard is no longer of any concern to me. I now decide who to guard almost solely based on who needs the 5% damage reduction. But since that usually ends up being a melee DPS anyway, I suppose the point is moot.
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Kupo's Avatar


Kupo
07.19.2012 , 01:54 PM | #12
Guess I misread the tooltip. I thought it all had a 15 meter range.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaizrin View Post
With guard up, a simple hammer shot (no resource cost) will pluck the enemy off you. Without guard? Most likely 2-3 hammer shots, possibly an ion pulse, or maybe even a stockstrike / high impact bolt.
Does it really take that much, even after 1.3? To be fair, I don't have a trooper/BH at 50 yet, so I'm not sure how easy it is for them to grab things.

After thinking about it some more (I wrote the post at 2 am) and looking back at the thread, I realize that my main problem with putting Guard on healers isn't so much that they don't need it, it's that some tanks seem to think that Guard is a substitute for actual tanking. I should have emphasized the point: "every enemy in a pull must be controlled, either by someone hitting it (preferably the tank) or crowd control. Anything that is not controlled is likely to go after the healer, and Guard will not prevent that." I've seen too many tanks go into pulls as if they were fighting solo. This is especially a problem with pulls that have more than one boss or elite.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback everyone. It still annoys me, but I'll try not to complain about Guard so much if no one else needs it.

Vaizrin's Avatar


Vaizrin
07.19.2012 , 02:07 PM | #13
I had figured the issue stemmed from that on my healer (lvl 23 smuggler) I noticed a lot of te low level tanks doing that...

Even with the boost to threat in 1.3 hammer shot is a hair too weak after a big heal or if the healer has a lot of hots up. If the healer is guarded its enough to pull off almost immediately, small difference but sometimes there are situations this can create an issue.

Honestly though it's only ever been an issue with bad dps. So if you roll exclusively with guild runs of hm flashpoints or only run ops you'll never encounter a situation to guard a healer (within reason).
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DiLune's Avatar


DiLune
07.19.2012 , 02:22 PM | #14
If a DPS is ripping agro from me I guard them.

If not, why not guard the healer? Reducing their chance to pull agro from a lightly controlled mob (a mob I may have some threat on but am not focusing on at this point or one the DPS will get to in another few seconds) seems like a decent enough reason.

DPS don't die from random damage unless they do something phenomenally stupid or the healer just really doesn't want to heal them. 5% DR isn't exactly world beating and if it gets to the point where it would make a difference, the healer is already indifferent to them and they would die anyway. On the other hand, if I can reduce the amount of times my healer is annoyed by being attacked I'm all for it.

Now that's FP's. Ops are a different matter (more damage tossed around.)

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.19.2012 , 02:24 PM | #15
Only the 50% damage transfer is range limited, and it is also only applicable in PvP. Thus, if you're in PvE, you can ignore the range of Guard altogether. Its effects are basically: 25% threat reduction and 5% damage taken reduction. My rule is basically the following…

If we're in a boss fight in an operation, the guard goes to the healers. I'm just using it for damage reduction in this case, since every little bit helps. I never lose agro on a boss (to any DPS), so threat is a non-issue. If I'm in a boss fight in a flashpoint, the guard *probably* goes to the healers unless it's a single-target boss (no adds), in which case I'll give it to the highest-damage melee DPS. For trash pulls in a flashpoint, it goes to the healer for omni-directional threat reduction, making it easier to hold the adds (yes, it does help). For trash pulls in an operation, it *might* go to the healer for threat reduction, but I'm more likely to give it to the highest-damage melee DPS for threat reduction.

I will also use guard dynamically if I'm having threat issues with a particular DPS (almost never happens these days), or to compensate for fight mechanics. For example, I guard the player with the bomber buff when fighting Kephess, since they're about to take an annoying amount of damage. Similarly, I try to guard one of the people grabbing their ball lightning when fighting Soa (this is less important than it was pre-1.2). When fighting Toth & Zorn, I will guard a melee DPS for damage reduction during the leap.

Swapping guard dynamically is a really important thing to be able to do, but it's worth noting that Guard is on the GCD, so you're trading threat, positioning and (for some classes) healing for a small threat and damage reduction on a new target. That's a tradeoff that is only worthwhile in a surprisingly narrow set of cases.
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schnopsnosn's Avatar


schnopsnosn
07.19.2012 , 02:28 PM | #16
Since I've been doing HMs via the LFG-tool I noticed this too and they won't listen to you, you can ask them in chat all you want, they don't react.
I usually queue up with a healer so it's not that much of a problem but thanks to that I'm used to tanking HMs with my Sorc now.

CitizenFry's Avatar


CitizenFry
07.20.2012 , 09:38 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I guard the player with the bomber buff when fighting Kephess, since they're about to take an annoying amount of damage.
Aside: if you have a Sage in your group, you can save a lot of that damage with a well-timed Rescue (as soon as the grappling hook goes up). But that is a good point, since you aren't doing anything else with your GCD at that moment anyway, might as well!
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bbare's Avatar


bbare
07.23.2012 , 09:46 PM | #18
I guard Whoever has the most burst damage at the beginning of the fight. These are usually assassins or powertechs. Once you get passed 10 sec or so, you will be so far up the threat meter that it is impossible to pull off of you.

iDraxter's Avatar


iDraxter
07.24.2012 , 05:48 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by dcgregorya View Post
We guard melee DPS - not healers. You are correct, adds will always go against healers if no one attacks them.
This
My jaw hits the floor when I random queue for my daily hard modes and the healer tells me to put guard on him, I usually tell them they pvp to much cuz that's the only place they should see guard on them, seriously 2 nights ago I actually had to spend time arguing with a guy that doesn't play tanks .
I have a lvl 50 PT, lvl 50 jugg and a lvl 21 sin all tanks I think I know what I m doing.
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ImmortalAlien's Avatar


ImmortalAlien
07.24.2012 , 06:29 AM | #20
I guard the healer just for the sake of having a guard or because I don't care. Due to how threat works, the healer will pull aggro from all undamaged or untaunted mobs. The threat reduction won't help.

Also, experienced DPS know to kill the weakest enemies to the strongest barring any mechanic check. Any adds or trash that the healer might aggro should be killed fast enough for the healer to not die. Also, the damage reduction is only 5%, meaning all enemies only have to do 5% more damage than they would to normally kill the healer. For moderate to heavy damage output mobs, that's usually just a hit considering that a healer with BIS everything and augments would have 20k health. This means the damage reduction only saves them from 1k of damage from what would normally kill them.

Therefore, my guard priority is always on the DPS. This is due to the fact that even if threat rates for tanks have doubled, it's still possible for well geared DPS to more than double the tank's damage output, most likely doing more sustained threat than the tank could. As for other DPS, I tell them to keep their threat dump on CD after 30 seconds into the fight.

And as a Jugg, I heavily suggest using Intercede as a total threat wipe for a teammate. With it, you could rip aggro off of an Infernal Council mob away from the person Interceded to, essentially meaning that nearly all of the player's threat was vaporized.