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Fixes to AP


Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
07.17.2012 , 07:36 PM | #1
Hey, Here are some proposed fixes that could be implemented into the talent trees for AP: People don't seem to be playing the spec the way the Devs intended; not taking HEC, most builds I see are hybrids as opposed to full AP builds, and many people I see playing don't use flamethrower everytime they get 5 stacks of PTF. Also, they don't go all the way up for Hamstring. These changes could fix that:

First and foremost, Flame Thrower needs a buff for us. Either a straight up damage buff, or (Preferably), adding it to Prototype Weapon Systems, giving us 30% crit damage to Flame thrower.

Serrated Blades SUCKS! Retractable blade is not worth the heat, according to some players.. Sure, it does more damage than flame burst, slightly, but requires melee range! Same with rocket punch, but let's just focus on RB. Retractable blade is really just something to add on for procs. I think that Serrated Blades should be replaced with something along the lines of "Damage dealt by Rocket Punch and Retractable Blade have a [10%/20%/30%] to make the next flamethrower free. I sort of took this from someone else (Cannot remember name, sorry), who proposed it, because we're usually in a hurry to deploy a flame thrower, and we're at about 50-60 heat, which really has us lose a lot of DPS. I don't wanna have to use TSO (Thermal Sensor Override) every time I overheat due to flamethrower...

Lastly, the stance: HEC is bad by most people's standards, as most people use the tank stance, because it's the only tank stance that doesn't limit damage by lowering it. In fact, it has extra damage than being stanceless! The other two tanks can't DPS in tank stance, but we can. Increasing HEC's damage to something better (10%?), or, give it a proc! I imagine it would synergize well with the... proc-e-ness... of the spec. And of course it'll be all about heat conservation. How about elemental and internal damage has a 20% to make our next heat spender free? I'm all out of ideas, so discuss.
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midnitemonster's Avatar


midnitemonster
07.17.2012 , 10:19 PM | #2
AP is not meant to be a burst spec, nor a high damage spec. It is meant as a sustained dps spec with mobility and survivability. HEC adds a constant 5% dmg to your main attacks RB, FT and FB... sustained dps.

The people that are not full AP are doing so because they are afraid to give up the talents they are used to in other trees. The changes you are proposing makes it sound like you want a Pyrotechish AP... Which it does not need. AP is nice as is. If people would use a full AP spec and learn how to use it, instead of trying to force a play style that was not meant for it. They would not be having problems.
"Evil is a word used by the ignorant and the weak. The dark side is about survival. It's about unleashing your inner power. It glorifies the strength of the individual."

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
07.18.2012 , 10:01 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by midnitemonster View Post
AP is not meant to be a burst spec, nor a high damage spec. It is meant as a sustained dps spec with mobility and survivability. HEC adds a constant 5% dmg to your main attacks RB, FT and FB... sustained dps.

The people that are not full AP are doing so because they are afraid to give up the talents they are used to in other trees. The changes you are proposing makes it sound like you want a Pyrotechish AP... Which it does not need. AP is nice as is. If people would use a full AP spec and learn how to use it, instead of trying to force a play style that was not meant for it. They would not be having problems.
Couple of Changes - HEGC Talented is 8 percent. Regardless of whether AP is supposed to be burst or not. The problem lies in CGC which is Pyro's Cylinder. You can get better sustained damage by Going AP with CGC. It's a pain to do, but it's doable.

I agree that People are proposing changes that are a bit too radical at times. My personal feeling is Charged Gauntlets should add 5 percent with stacks up to 4 to PFT. This would make PFT and Charged Gauntlets a significant upgrade to what Pyro can do with it. Remember the damage difference between PFT and Pyro's FT is 50 percent this means if your crit is 2k per tick than Pyro's crit should be half of that, but it's not. The pyro's in my guild get 1.5-1.8k crits on Flame Thrower, I get 2.2k Crits.

Charged Gauntlets should add more damage to Flame Thrower or improve it's crit precentage. I would like to see PFT be 2x stronger for AP than for Pyro. Currently it's about 500 damage per tick which is nice, but Immolate and Flame Burst are pretty close to FT in damage and don't require casting time.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

dardack's Avatar


dardack
07.18.2012 , 11:25 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
Remember the damage difference between PFT and Pyro's FT is 50 percent this means if your crit is 2k per tick than Pyro's crit should be half of that, but it's not. The pyro's in my guild get 1.5-1.8k crits on Flame Thrower, I get 2.2k Crits.
Um 50% of something isn't half, it's 50% (which I know 50% is half, but you're doubling the base and saying you should be doing 3k-3.6k but that's 100% not 50%).

Like How do i show this, ok so let's say your surge is 50% and base is 1k.

So without PFT your crits should be 1.5k, ok simple.

With PFT your base is now 1.5k, (1k base plus 50% more, which is 500), now add the 50% surge, is 2.25k. If it was 100% then yes it should be half (ie base is now 2k, 50% surge is another 1k = 3k, which is double none PFT), 50% makes it 50%, (1.5k crit for base * 50% for PFT is 2.25k, another way of looking at it is add half of the base crit, so base crit is 1.5k, half is 750, 1.5+750=2.25k). Hope I explained this better.
Doofensmirtz lvl 50 PTIn Erebus Drooga's Pleasure Barge. 4 Imps 50. Doofentrooper lvl 50 VG in Goof Troop DPB
Dear BW please have RS/HiB send me to other fleet Nekkid. TY. Also, don't allow 3 sin/shadow 2 sorc/sage teams in HB. That is all.

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
07.18.2012 , 11:29 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by dardack View Post
Um 50% of something isn't half, it's 50% (which I know 50% is half, but you're doubling the base and saying you should be doing 3k-3.6k but that's 100% not 50%).

Like How do i show this, ok so let's say your surge is 50% and base is 1k.

So without PFT your crits should be 1.5k, ok simple.

With PFT your base is now 1.5k, (1k base plus 50% more, which is 500), now add the 50% surge, is 2.25k. If it was 100% then yes it should be half (ie base is now 2k, 50% surge is another 1k = 3k, which is double none PFT), 50% makes it 50%, (1.5k crit for base * 50% for PFT is 2.25k, another way of looking at it is add half of the base crit, so base crit is 1.5k, half is 750, 1.5+750=2.25k). Hope I explained this better.
You are right, my brain froze. I got stuck at the 1/2, and when base numbers changed, kept going divided by 2 instead of using .5 multiplier. Thanks for the clarification. In the end that only proves that we need a higher number. I think if Charged Guantlets added to the damage it would make PFT awesome, but they would probably have to tie PFT to HEGC at that point.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

dardack's Avatar


dardack
07.18.2012 , 11:39 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
You are right, my brain froze. I got stuck at the 1/2, and when base numbers changed, kept going divided by 2 instead of using .5 multiplier. Thanks for the clarification. In the end that only proves that we need a higher number. I think if Charged Guantlets added to the damage it would make PFT awesome, but they would probably have to tie PFT to HEGC at that point.
Or Make HEGC that much better and keep all the heat/movement benefits. Right now it Blows Chunks, srsly.

I agree AP needs a tweak here or there, but not too much. HEGC buff and yeah maybe CG adds another 20% to FT. But it doesn't need a huge tweak or 5-10 changes. Just 2 changes would probably be OK.
Doofensmirtz lvl 50 PTIn Erebus Drooga's Pleasure Barge. 4 Imps 50. Doofentrooper lvl 50 VG in Goof Troop DPB
Dear BW please have RS/HiB send me to other fleet Nekkid. TY. Also, don't allow 3 sin/shadow 2 sorc/sage teams in HB. That is all.

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
07.18.2012 , 11:48 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by dardack View Post
Or Make HEGC that much better and keep all the heat/movement benefits. Right now it Blows Chunks, srsly.

I agree AP needs a tweak here or there, but not too much. HEGC buff and yeah maybe CG adds another 20% to FT. But it doesn't need a huge tweak or 5-10 changes. Just 2 changes would probably be OK.
I actually think AP is fine the way it is, it's pyro that's out of whack.
The two changes that would bring Pyro into line with most of the other dps classes (let's not get into Mara/Sent over the top damage).

1. Take the 30 percent increase in Combustible Gas Cylinders dot damage down to 15 percent.

2. Reduce Rail Shot's Armor Penetration talent to 30 percent so the total is 60 percent instead of 90 percent.

This would bring the crazy damage of Pyro down to AP levels, and would reduce the burst from it's current 8-10k in a single second to a more manageable 5-8k.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

dardack's Avatar


dardack
07.18.2012 , 11:51 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
I actually think AP is fine the way it is, it's pyro that's out of whack.
The two changes that would bring Pyro into line with most of the other dps classes (let's not get into Mara/Sent over the top damage).

1. Take the 30 percent increase in Combustible Gas Cylinders dot damage down to 15 percent.

2. Reduce Rail Shot's Armor Penetration talent to 30 percent so the total is 60 percent instead of 90 percent.

This would bring the crazy damage of Pyro down to AP levels, and would reduce the burst from it's current 8-10k in a single second to a more manageable 5-8k.
Then as you say you gotta nerf mara/sent's. I don't know. I"m sure pyro is getting a nerf inc, i thought it was in 1.3 tbh.
Doofensmirtz lvl 50 PTIn Erebus Drooga's Pleasure Barge. 4 Imps 50. Doofentrooper lvl 50 VG in Goof Troop DPB
Dear BW please have RS/HiB send me to other fleet Nekkid. TY. Also, don't allow 3 sin/shadow 2 sorc/sage teams in HB. That is all.

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
07.18.2012 , 11:55 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by dardack View Post
Then as you say you gotta nerf mara/sent's. I don't know. I"m sure pyro is getting a nerf inc, i thought it was in 1.3 tbh.
I don't know enough about Mara/Sent's in order to properly suggest minor tweaks. I think everyone's main issue with Mara's is their defensive cooldowns. They are easily kiteable so their damage is pretty easy to reduce without worry. My recommendation is take that shield, that hurts you for damage you do to them, away. The 99 percent damage reduction should be either taken away or the 45 sec cooldown on vanish should be taken away.

Actually let them keep that 99 percent 5sec shield, but have it reduce their outgoing damage by 50 percent during the time that the shield is up or have it reduce their speed by 50 percent. This would create a manageable fight.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

dardack's Avatar


dardack
07.18.2012 , 11:57 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
I don't know enough about Mara/Sent's in order to properly suggest minor tweaks. I think everyone's main issue with Mara's is their defensive cooldowns. They are easily kiteable so their damage is pretty easy to reduce without worry. My recommendation is take that shield, that hurts you for damage you do to them, away. The 99 percent damage reduction should be either taken away or the 45 sec cooldown on vanish should be taken away.

Actually let them keep that 99 percent 5sec shield, but have it reduce their outgoing damage by 50 percent during the time that the shield is up or have it reduce their speed by 50 percent. This would create a manageable fight.
agreed. I would like to see 50% reduction to outgoing damage. Can't tell you how many times i'm at 50% hp they are at 25% they pop it, and i stun, they break it, and i'm dead before their shield comes down.
Doofensmirtz lvl 50 PTIn Erebus Drooga's Pleasure Barge. 4 Imps 50. Doofentrooper lvl 50 VG in Goof Troop DPB
Dear BW please have RS/HiB send me to other fleet Nekkid. TY. Also, don't allow 3 sin/shadow 2 sorc/sage teams in HB. That is all.