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WhiskeyGin's Avatar

07.23.2012 , 04:38 AM | #101
I'm one of those rare people who play Concealment Operative, specifically for pvp.

1. My PVP-rep on my server is pretty strong, so no one really looks down on me; however, most Rated Warzone teams that formed on my server have some prejudice against DPS Operatives. Their reasoning (which I agree with to a degree), is that we lack much lethal burst, have no means of closing a gap, and our overall fragility. It makes me have to work hard to get any respect for the difference a bona fide stealth class can make to a Warzone, but the challenge is welcome to me.

2. I like my spec; we're like a slowed-down rogue. However, I'm extremely jealous of other classes' means of closing gaps as well as how little my "burst" damage is-- as a stealth class burst is what I rely on to be effective. I know it's a balancing act between making us too powerful in burst damage and too powerful in our ability to control other players. We're already light on the control abilities, so why am I not bursting down Defense Guardians then gleefully slipping back into the shadows while I let everything line back up?
Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try.
Whiskey of The Shadowlands' Redrum

Yestreen's Avatar

07.23.2012 , 04:58 AM | #102
Heals Spec:

1 - We are the most sought-after healing class in PVP because, once we have TA, we can do 700+ hps without channeling any spells. We have more cooldowns than other healers, between evasion, shield probe, vanish, debilitate (15 sec when specced) and flash bang. We can also have dangerous burst (explosive probe+backstab can do up to 5k burst, other healers can't do that).

2 - I perceive medic to be the only viable spec in PVP right now. It is the strongest healing spec and can easily break 1000hps in a warzone if the player is good. They are so vertasile for the reasons outlined above. My only criticism is that they can have a slightly long ramp-up time if they dont start a fight with any TA. Without TA they are weak as hell, but once they have 2-3 TA for surgical probe spam they are insane. I wouldn't change the spec now, but instead buff the other healers to match operatives because TTK in this game is very low.

I used to be concealment, but now the damage/burst is so terrible that nobody wants them, so I was forced to respec heals just to get in to groups. Because of how their resource system works, they can't do BOTH healing and damage because they would run out of energy. Their Hidden Strike hits for less than a railshot. Their 12 second backstab cooldown makes the class feel awkward. If you want to kill anything in decent time you will run out of energy. They fill resolve bars too quickly, but need to just to stay in melee range.
My suggestion for concealment: If you want to keep their damage the same, you will need to tweak their resource regeneration system (perhaps remove the energy regen penalty at <60% with a top-tier talent) and give them an additional gap closer so they have more uptime (maybe replace the hidden strike knockdown with a powerful snare or shadowstep-type ability). If not, you need to give them more damage/burst.

Lethality is just plain awkward as a spec. Extremely clunky. Damage has a huge ramp-up time and it can be very energy intensive. It requires that you use 10-12 abilties regularly so it has a much higher skill cap than other classes/specs. It also requires that you cleave dots on seveal targets just so you can get the energy regen from crits. This tree needs serious re-designing.

As a side note, I'm glad BW is making these threads. Some classes/specs are extremeley OP (rage or carnage mara's, Pyro powertechs, op healers, tankassins) and some classes/specs are completely useless (deception assassin, arsenal merc, pyro merc...) They need to address these issues before I will consider resubbing.

edit: sorry for writing more than 2-3 sentances but I have played all 3 specs a lot and wanted to give my insight to all 3, not just medic.
<Hey im mvp>

TianaArylle's Avatar

07.23.2012 , 05:19 AM | #103
I play a level 50 Healer Operative: 33 Medicine / 3 Concealment / 5 Lethality. I do hard mode flashpoints, no operations or pvp.

1. How do you think your Operative spec is perceived by other classes?
It seems to be perceived as a "do everything" class. Heal, crowd control everything, dps help. It's nice to be a jack of all trades, but if you try to do that, you become a master of none, and just because I have energy in my bar doesn't mean I should be dps'ing. We get decent respect as healers, which I like.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
I think healing often feels like busy work - lots of clicks and burning global cooldowns for little benefit. Having to use two global cooldowns to keep kolto probe up is just annoying, and needing to cast it twice makes healing group damage frustrating. DPS rarely chooses to stand still long enough to make recuperative nanotech useful, and boss mechanics don't encourage standing near each other. It's like the game mechanics are fighting me. I wish I had a proactive ability when I know damage will come (bubble/damage absorb) instead of relying on inefficient overhealing. I feel like everything I do is a reaction to something - damage, tactical advantage, staring at tooltips to see if I need to recast stim boost/probe - I don't feel in control of my healing, and that is frustrating.

KaKiMi's Avatar

07.23.2012 , 06:43 AM | #104
1. How do you think your Operative spec is perceived by other classes?

A forced option when I need to be carried and nothing else

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

A slight predicament between a very bad joke and a broken concept

Wisnoe's Avatar

07.23.2012 , 08:06 AM | #105
1. How do you think your Operative spec is perceived by other classes?
2. How do you perceive your own spec?

1) I am medicine specced. The Medicine spec is perceived as very strong in pve and pvp, with pvp even stronger than pve. I can do Ops, Hard Mode Flashpoints and PVP ( I don't do ranked) with it without comments.
2) I perceive my own spec as strong in both pve and pvp. The upside is the mobility, the downside is that we have no energy based secondary casting heal (that doesn't need TA). I'd prefer a swap of requiring TA from Kolto Infusion to Recuperative Nanotech for PVE reasons.

3) I am specced Medicine because of the several nerfs to the Concealment tree up to 1.2. Acid Blade nerf, Hidden Strike nerf, Backstab cooldown increase, making Acid Blade tick less as well, Shiv nerf and I believe even a Laceration nerf, making Concealment feel very weak compared to other classes. For DPS I already had to weave in Rifle Shot for energy management, but because of the increased cooldowns Concealment feels out of place now with even more time to fill up between cooldowns that aren't melee.

obi-joachim's Avatar

07.23.2012 , 03:34 PM | #106
1. How do you think your Operative spec is perceived by other classes?

Operative Medic PVP: high mobility, instant heal, vanish, speed multiplier, one of the stronger healing classes.
Operative Medic PVE: single target healing, example focusing on tank, one of the stronger healing classes.

Operative Concealment PVP: high burst, substain damage, stunlocking, helpfull in RWZ
Operative Concealment PVE: high burst at the beginning, bad substain DPS, easily replaceable with any other DPS class.

Operative Lethality PVP: substain DPS, not helpfull what so ever regarding anything but DPS/ no CC,
Operative Lethality PVE: dies due to serveral game mechanics, capable of substain damage, preferable replacing by another DPS class.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

Operative Medic PVP: time consuming to kill, great heal over time, one of the best healers ingame.
Operative Medic PVE: single target healer, trusting heal over time, good energy management.

Operative Concealment PVP: helpfull due to infiltrate, high burst over short duration, energy problem accour over long duration fights, bad mobility, cloaking screen is poorly made (should teleport you OUT of combat, not make you go stealth nearby combat), no substain damage/hard to get out of combat to resneak.
Operative Concealment PVE: worst dps ingame, no substain damage, bad energy management, non-friendly PVE mechanics regarding melee, no gap closerer, no teambuff what so ever, no reason to bring to raid.

Operative Lethality PVP: good on DPS list, dot / switch target (most efficient), cull mechanic is done bad (have to go melee range to trigger a ranged attack), good mobility
Operative Lethality PVE: awkward ability mechanics, many bosses (especially Zorn & Toth) requires you to switch target if you get some sort of debuff (example). Our dots will make it almost impossible to not suicide, weird hybrid of melee/ranged with no gap closerer or speedboost if you are out of range.

To wrap it up; I've played Operative since launch achieving full War Hero PVP set and Campain PVE set, to give you some knowledge from where i got my experience from. The whole class feels awkward and unbalanced, the Medic side of the Operative is strong but the DPS side of it is unchallenging and dull. Lethality has substain damage but get repeatable. I see the trying of making a hybrid specc for Operative, but there is no reason to act like it, the substain damage in PVP come from spamming dots and switching target. I hope for a redesign on that area. I also hope for a redesign on how the spell Cloaking Screen works. Concealment specc has no substain DPS what so ever, also there is nothing to get yourself closer to the enemy target.

My suggestion would be to give Operative serveral new openers. This will might give you an option; substain damage, or high burst over short period.

PS: I'm getting this information by my own experience, also pharsers, also others opinion
I also want to thank you developers for making a thread like this.

I also read this after a while from the OP; Here are the two questions that we’d like to ask (please only post about specific specs that you actively play, and don’t forget to tell us which one you’re talking about!):
In my excuse for that, i've played all speccs active to check l if the unbalanced/awkward feel is all around the class. As i said, i've played active Operative since pre-release.

Headkick's Avatar

07.23.2012 , 04:57 PM | #107

1. How do you think your Operative spec is perceived by other classes?

There are so very few of these around so most people don't even have a precepion of them anymore.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

It's been nerfed to death. I've had to respec to healer in order to play rwz's/ops. I didn't roll operative to be a healer but rather a stealthy class with alot of burst dmg.

Another concealment operative signing out... see you guys in GW2.


morbidcritic's Avatar

07.25.2012 , 10:54 PM | #108
I am mostly PVE Lethality orientated... with some Healing PVP for fun.

1. How do you think your Operative spec is perceived by other classes?

We are considered low on the invite list, but being in a friendly guild makes it bearable. Our perceived strength is our rarity... we provide a class buff and don't compete with the popular classes for loot. Its not a flattering view, but one must make do.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

I enjoy Lethality but IMO it does have several shortcomings... due to some design flaws. Its a Melee class with a little bit of range when it could be a more entertaining hybrid. Expanding the range on 'gun skills' like Cull, Overload shot, Weakening Blast, etc would give us more playstyle options, help with mobility, and improve DPS... in relation to out of range issues. It would be nice to have a gun skill proc Tactical Advantages, since we are reliant on Shiv (a melee ranged attack). As commonly noted, we lack a gap closing skill and lose DPS moving to mobs or evacuating certain areas. Also when the raid uses Crowd Control on mobs, we have to be very careful with Corrosive Grenade or do without it (losing a bit of Cull damage).

Healing spec : I have nothing to add, wiser people than myself are best consulted on this issue.

Thanks for reading.

Syberduh's Avatar

07.27.2012 , 04:34 PM | #109
Going to chime in again.

The single skill that makes concealment ops utterly (and very vocally) hated by ungeared/unskilled players is the knockdown on hidden strike. People will tolerate being stunned and out of control of their character. It's being completely unexpectedly out of control that infuriates them. I think most players would happily accept the class doing 20%-30% more overall damage if they didn't have to deal with this "OP" skill.

I would happily trade the knockdown on hidden strike for a damage buff and/or (preferably and) a "shadowstep" gap closer on a 45s cooldown.

tatatan's Avatar

07.29.2012 , 12:56 AM | #110
I'm DPS Lethality

PVP (valor 80)
1. How do you think your Operative spec is perceived by other classes?
annoying squishy bug = kill him first, before he's able to get to Cull on weak targets.. (usually you're marked)

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
You have to play it very smart, and it is frustrating, knowing the class has design flaws:
- TA generation: bad! get TA from Shiv (only reliable source of TA for Leth.) you have to go melee! if you go melee, you meet the 'real deal' melee classes => you're noted, you die
- TA stack hold time = 10 sec bad!

1. How do you think your Operative spec is perceived by other classes?
Not bad, but dont invite him unless there is no other choice of DPS

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
I'm not sure, after being kicked from couple of grps in endgame and being replaced by e.g. sniper, i stopped doing PVE (im not in guild, so ppl dont bear up with my lower DPS)

1. tie it to range attack (completely redesign it, or give us another TA generator, beside Shiv - e.g. tie it to Weakening Blast too)
2. prolong the hold up time of TA stack: tie to "Lethal dose" each point spent there = 2 sec => 6sec possible (just like "Medical consult" in medic tree)