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willybot's Avatar


willybot
07.16.2012 , 05:03 PM | #21
Vengeance DPS (//)
As with other hybrid classes, you always feel that there is something to prove. More work has to be put it to excelling at your role when it feels that the 'pure' classes sing "Anything you can do, I can do better". The only true raid assistance we bring to the table is the ability to act as an emergency off-tank, but this is fraught with limitations (loss of all Rage when changing stances, difficulty of a non-Immortal Jugg to raise Rage while expending it to keep threat) and does not have the superior cooldown abilities brought by an Assassin or Marauder. Simply put, between the extra defensive abilities and raid utility (Shroud/Rez and Bloodthirst), unless the skill disparity is large there is little reason to take a Juggernaut over the other melee DPS classes.

Up-time disparity is our largest weakness when compared to other DPS classes, especially ranged. Nearly every boss encounter and a fair amount of trash places unequal burden upon melee in general. Running a damage parser it's easy to see the difference between an stationary/equal fight (combat dummies or the tanks in EC) and one where you are forced to spend a disproportionate amount of time chasing enemies/avoiding mechanics (such as Kephiss or the twins).
I understand that the 'melee hate' has been inherent in encounter design since time immemorial. Boss mechanics designed to hinder tanks effect melee dps and rarely ranged while effects that hinder range are usually raid-wide and hinder melee dps as well. The oft-used balance to this is to attempt to increase melee damage a bit in the hope that it all evens out but I don't think we've quite reached that balance yet. I've seen the 5% gap mentioned as the acceptable range that the Balance Team sets between 'top and bottom' dps classes. It's a fair compromise, but I fear it may be a 'dummy-meter' metric and not one based off of the up-time/down-time disparity in actual encounters.

To help close the gap? Perhaps a combination of changing boss mechanics to force ranged dps to move more often than they do, tuning up melee damage a bit, or decreasing the cooldowns of our one distance-closing move (Force Charge) or our one real ranged ability (Saber Throw). Force Scream/Vicious Throw are 'ranged' yes, but most mechanics will easily place you outside it's 10m range.
The last two options will likely have an effect on PvP I imagine, but since I'm not an active PvP'er I cannot comment. I give the suggestions only based on PvE experience.

Overall things are pretty well in-hand, but it weighs a bit knowing that, thanks to forces I cannot control, the best I can achieve is a certain percentage of what other classes in the same role can do. Thank you for opening these threads, hopefully something positive will come from them.

maliken's Avatar


maliken
07.16.2012 , 05:15 PM | #22
1. I Feel juggernaut is lacking something very signature move compared to other classes, For an example we got intercede and force push that's true. But something is still missing that make screams this is a juggernaut you are facing kind of offensive ability. But overall I am happy with the design in both rage and vengeance compared to marauder's own trees.

2. You got Shien form and all abilities perfectly fine both lore wise and gameplay wise. I got no single complaints at all and they feel unique as dmg dealers compared to other classes in both pvp and pve.

jasonthelamb's Avatar


jasonthelamb
07.16.2012 , 05:30 PM | #23
Playing as a DPS Jugg

1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
I was told by the top Raiding guild on my server (or one of the top), that they only take "Real DPS classes." I feel like everyone sees Juggs as ONLY tanks, even my guild has said that I'm the only DPS Jugg they've ever seen or had.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
I really do think a DPS Jugg is the weak link, sure they can pull off average DPS, but on parsers and such you never see a Jugg stand out like an agent, Marauder, or Sorcerer does. I've thought about re-rolling for a Marauder or Agent, because I get laughed at so much - but I've just put so much work into my Jugg that leaving would probably make me want to quit instead.

nkitch's Avatar


nkitch
07.16.2012 , 05:55 PM | #24
I play immortal 31/6/4 tank, and while our threat gen seems the same to me after 1.3 I think due to the damage reduction we suffered, pvp is where I feel our main issues are.

1) I think other class's see my class as a none-threat in pvp, while harder to kill then some class's we are just no threat damage wise to anyone.

2) Although the one thing we excel at seems to be guarding a healer, the only time my jugg/tank feels epic is when I'm carrying the ball in huttball the rest of the time when trying to attack some one it feels like we just being kept out of arms reach and not contributing to the fight.
Before 1.3 when fighting it felt like you where tanking trying to get your 5 stacks of sunder on the enemy and building up to your big hit with crushing blow, that's not the case anymore.
I don't see how certain class's can tank just as well but still do massive damage and burn us down with easy.
The Bladehunter Legacy
Tomb of Freedon Nadd

Marlowe's Avatar


Marlowe
07.16.2012 , 05:59 PM | #25
Immortal spec

1- Traditional single target tank.

2- The recent loss of DPS is noticeable, but the control over multiple is also a bit improved. Could be improved a bit further with added radius to the 2 cooldown force abilities.

Wallach's Avatar


Wallach
07.16.2012 , 06:32 PM | #26
I play a Juggernaut in Immortal spec (32/7/2), build for PvP over PvE slightly.

As for your questions:

1. I think players see my spec as a damage sponge and taunt/guard bot in PvP that has no damage output. Not perceived as any kind of offensive threat but an important target to track if only to kill whoever I have guarded. As far as PvE goes, I feel like we are regarded as solid tanks but maybe the weakest of the three by some margin. Certainly we seem to be considered the lowest DPS possible in SWTOR.

2. My perception of Immortal is that it has a lot of PvP utility that comes with the downside of having very little damage. Personally I have a stupid amount of fun with the combination of quite a lot of CC and extreme mobility while still having a ton of survivability. However, I think that the way the tree is constructed doesn't well match the design of the rest of SWTOR's skill trees; Immortal almost seems to get weaker the more you invest into the tree, with high tier talents like Thrown Gauntlet and Shield Specialization having relatively poor returns per point, whereas the first three tiers are packed with significantly more value. In particular, we get very little survivability beyond the third tier when it comes to PvP, to the point where a lot of players that tank in PvP have just started putting those points into Vengeance instead for more damage and some different utility (like trading Backhand for Unstoppable). Doing this doesn't cost them any survivability as a tank in PvP and in my opinion that is a sign Immortal isn't up to par. I'm satisfied with the play style of Immortal and the active skills introduced in the tree (Invincible, Backhand and Crushing Blow are all useful and fun to use) but the passives - particularly beyond tier 3 - need to be examined and more passive survivability introduced in the upper half. Particularly Dark Blood and Sweeping Fury.

Raansu's Avatar


Raansu
07.16.2012 , 06:40 PM | #27
1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
As a liability and easily forgotten in pvp. Typically only a danger with rage spec and even then they are lucky to get one smash in before dieing. In pve no one wants them as a dps and as a tank they are used as a secondary most of the time.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
Fun but weak. I have a 50 sent and a 50 juggernaut and while I enjoy both I have more fun on my juggernaut. Problem is as a dps juggernaut though is I have no survivability in pvp. Enraged defense is only useful in vengeance tree and endure pain is a complete joke. 30% heal that only lasts 10 seconds? 10 seconds later its like taking a double crit and I find myself running around with 1hp and dead a second later. Vengeance is my favorite spec but as a sustained dps spec we have nothing to survive with as a melee class compared to our AC counterpart sentinel. Outside of being a ball carrier and spamming chilling scream in hallways I feel useless in vengeance spec. The dots either need a self heal or we need better defensive CD's. Because of their low survivability for a sustained dps spec I literally feel forced into rage spec just to get some burst and decent damage on a target before I'm dead. While rage spec can be amusing at time hitting 3-4 people for 4-5k it's not my preferred spec. I'd much rather be playing vengeance.

Tank spec I haven't really played with too much but for pvp all that white damage is really detrimental to them and sonic barrier talent for force scream is seriously lacking.

Morsexy's Avatar


Morsexy
07.16.2012 , 06:45 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by CommunitySupport View Post


1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
2. How do you perceive your own spec?
Rage Spec
1. I believe this spec is viewed by many as a "one trick pony". It is the thought of as the 'squishiest" Juggernaut spec and is routinely the primary focus target in PVP if you chose to focus a DPS and not a healer.

2. I think it can be more accurately described as having high burst for a very limited period coupled with a, now, longer period of far less damage, or in other words peaks and valleys. Since the removal of "Force Alacrity" in the Rage tree in 1.2, our level of consistent damage has been hurt quite a bit, making this spec far less powerful.

Waterjunkie's Avatar


Waterjunkie
07.16.2012 , 06:54 PM | #29
Jugg/Vengence

1. I feel as though players perceive me as being a pigeon-holed class. If your not specced rage you don't get to play Rated warzones due to players trying to make optimum team composition.

2. I perceive my class as the 'standard' tank and 'standard' Jugg. Other than the 30m leap nothing I do is any different from other classes. I love the Veng tree but it requires you to chase your target for the same dps other classes acheive through crowd control or range. The juggernaut does not feel like he lives up to the awesome power you think of when you say his name.

The class is a blast to play. Something seems missing from it's core though.
Suxtoubeux

Azazull's Avatar


Azazull
07.16.2012 , 07:02 PM | #30
1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
2. How do you perceive your own spec?


Rage pvp jugg


1. 1trick poney not a real threat outside of hutball

2. in a good spot as far as pvp is concerned, i think rage has a high skill cap to put out a ton of damage. if played properly can top the dps charts and still provide protection with taunts and a guard if really needed. i feel i have to work alot but not to much. overall i like where rage is right now but whould like a bit more survivability. this all coming from a pvp perspective, i also dont like how our main dps move being smash can be completely negated by a couple other classes if not timed properly, but not that big of a deal just have to know who your fighting and when to drop it.