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Sithphilis's Avatar


Sithphilis
07.29.2012 , 10:45 AM | #101
1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
I believe that my rage juggernaut spec is percieved as lacking in some areas from other classes. A missed smash on my rage juggernaut is a HUGE miss! (only to have to wait for the cd of the smash ability again)
What I bring to the group as a juggernaut is this: no effective CC, hit or miss aoe damage, a buff. (and a guard if Tank)

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
I respec a fair bit and am in the process of looking at ways to improve my gameplay. These are (IMAO) what i have discovered with the juggernaut specs:
RAGE:Aoe bombshell. All damaging abilities rely on the one ability - smash - too much. (even vengeance gets a CD to its big hitter, ravage..)
Hit or miss with smash and you feel (hit) GREAT! (miss) FRUSTRATED... a lot! (doing near 15-20k in a single crit 4 stack shockwave smash total damage to five enemy's is fun! Missing that opportunity due to a knock back is probably the same amount of dissapointment you get from those socks you get on your birthday as a gift...)
Feels like the 20% armor reduction talent is a little high in the tree! Is this an indication that this spec seems a little unsure of itself? (check out the other talent trees of other classes and look where the armor reduction abilities are located.)
VENGEANCE: Solid Single target dps. Solid dps if all CD's are ready but if no cd's of abilities expect a lot of running around waiting for Cd abilities to pop. A bit boring and frustrating if faced with a group of targtes. (pve and pvp) Feels like it is lacking in output dps at times. If you can manage to stick to a target and persist is a rewarding tree.
IMMORTAL: Ultra LOW dps output - Weakest of all tanks that i have played (I have high end BH, Shadow and Vanguard tanks) in all areas (both pve and pvp). (unless of course you are healed and with friends, but alone it's a scary place to be.)
The crushing blow needs to have its aoe effect extended from 4m to 10m or more and an increase in overall dps. To do this I would suggest to merge some abilities together, whilst adding new damaging abilities. For example only, merge Blade barricade and lash out abilities together to a new three point ability (or any of the tanking abilities that can easily be merged together) and add in a new dps ability that is related to the tanking style of play, for example, 'new ability name' increases all damage done by X against sundered targets, X increasing by a % per sunder, For example 4, 8, 12% extra damage for a period of time (do we even go as far as saying from ALL damage types to lure in other dps classes like the shadow/assassin tanks can do *gasp!) per stack of sunder can only be used whilst in tanking form etc etc.
Juggernaut tanks are not broken, they just need some well deserved refinement.

Elyx's Avatar


Elyx
07.29.2012 , 12:58 PM | #102
I mostly DPS now, I rarely tank. I run mostly HM FP's, via the LFG

1)
DPS - I rarely get any gripes at all. When played well (this is important), the Jugg is a great asset to a small group due to their versatility. When I raid with the guild, it's a different story. I feel more like the tagalong...yeah, we can take along a DPS. FP's with the guild are fine tho. On a special note...I remember one instance where well known guild mates had finished an instance with me...and they wanted to do LI. because of the group makeup, they wanted a different DPS (ranged) in my place. Let me tell ya, it's not a good feeling to be left out because the other group players can't make up for the "apparent" disparity with a melee class with "poor" DPS. On the same note, they were perfectly happy discussing taking along the maurader in our guild. were both melee...there shouldn't be enough of a disparity for them to want the maurader over me just because it's a "tough" instance. Even if only perceived...there's not enough evidence outside of your mystical numbers to show that juggs can regularly dish out the pizza.


Tank -
I don't get many complaints from the guild when I do tank, but i lost momentum in gear, so they're a tier ahed of me now. but they like me tanking because im a good tank...I've actually had them mention they'd love me rolling a PT or Assassin to tank with...I'd much rather tank on my Jugg, but I think you get the picture. I don't tank on my jugg in randoms, so i can't tell you about that. but I notice people drop quite often when they find out that theirs melee DPS or a Jugg tank in the mix. many times they will form with the group....hang out for a minute, then drop. this rarely happens at ALL when I play my merc. the only thing I can think of is that my merc is ranged...my jugg DPS.

2)
DPS
I like jugg DPS. I like the play, feel and rotation. My only complaint right now is that everyone sees us as a weak link. The maurader is seen as worth bringing, simply due to the DPS difference. yeah, they're melee too, but they're burst is worth the extra management (yes, melee mean extra management for raid leaders). If they're really is only a 5% difference between us and mauraders, the general populace is not seeing it...and their aren't enough numbers to convince them. simply increasing our DoT's would make this a non-issue. longer DoTs with more damage. This would negate much of the "travel time" issue we have, as the DoT's would continue to tick as were hopping around. the extra time would account for the need to re-apply in fast moving situations, and the extra damage would catch us up to the mauraders and their burst abilities.


TANK -
I Don't honestly tank much since 1.3. the damage loss is noticeable in threat as well as simply feeling like a wet noodle. The added benefit of Crushing blow is rarely seen....on fights where the mobs last long enough to get 5 full sunder stacks, your usually only fighting ONE mob. on trash (where the AoE would help), they die to fast...I have to focus almost soley on rushign 5 stacks of sunder to make crushing blow even relevant. I prefer it in its previous state, at least it hit hard enought o pull aggro, doesn't really do that anymore.

feel like i have to struggle more now then before in full immortal spec for aggro. Not sure if it's due to the spec changes, or due to the increase in damage from fully augmented DPS (and by nature DPS love to "let it all out". but even with the threat changes, I feel like im relying much more on my taunts then before. I simply do not understand (and Bio has yet to even explain) the damage nerfs to the immortal spec when WE DID THE LOWEST DAMAGE OUT OF ALL THE TANK SPECS. it's simply ludicrous. and no explanation. Everyone and their dog knew we were low on threat, we didn't need an explanation on that. but out of nowhere you nerfed out DAMAGE? I don't get it. and im a pretty understanding guy. I understood why you needed to adjust my sage's healing. I understood why you needed to cut back my shadow consulars armor. but the damage nerf on my jugg leaves me speechless (yes, i play all 3, so I am not coming from the Only play jugg state). simply bringing our DPS back up would solve the threat issue...it's like you gave us more threat, but dropped damage, so our threat is less of a boost then it was before.

And solo I hit like a wet noodle. in tank spec I simply kill slower, even with a columni geared DPS companion. Solo vengeance is cake walk with a healer. even with a DPS companion, i have less downtime then when im in tank spec...the mobs die fast enough that I just don't take damage. we are the only tank class where people almost prefer a hybrid spec over a full tank spec. that should tell you something. everything past tier 3 in the immortal tree is lackluster at best....on my SC i looked forward to my pulling ability, and my 31 Pt talent (yay! serious AoE stuff). on my PT i looked forward to my charge ability ( mot the baseline PT abilities are fantastic in themselves). On my jugg...i get 3-4 tiers into the immortal tree...and start wishing I was back in my vengeance tree. I cringe when I realize im going to have to take crushing blow and backhand as theirs not much better.

Vengeance gets new abilities....bleeds....new attacks, great rage reduction tools (free smash? 9 sec. shout? yes plz), and on top of all this I get some of the best DEFENSIVE ABILITIES IN THE CLASS in my DPS spec. my tank spec? 5 second increase on a temp health boost (last about as long as a single healers cast..good luck timing that one). we get 4% internal and elemental DR (vengeance gets 4% across the board), and one of the weakest attacks in our arsenal as a 31 pt talent (not including the HUGE AoE addition...with 3 whole targets...yeah thats awesome <--note sarcasm). we get a 4 second stun on a minute CD that is worthless against bosses (great on others...but its damage is pitiful now). it's only real use at this point is threat.

I could go on, but we've discussed this many times before in numerous threads, and you guys don't seem to get it. We need more damage, in all 3 specs...period. immortal the most. Vengeance needs more long term damage OR more ranged abilities. saber throw on a 30sec CD is a joke. same with push...neither of those are powerful enough abilities that we should have them on such a long CD. My SC's force wave does about the same damage, hit all mobs, stuns the same ones mine stuns (it's a knockdown, I know...but it accomplished the same thing in PvE), AND it pushes them back.....AND it's on a 20 s CD. more results...lower CD....I don't get it. whats so powerful about our force push that it deserves 60 seconds? same with saber throw....does similar damage to many ranged abilites that the other classes have on 6-10 second CD's. ours is 30? take off the rage gen if you need to...we NEED saber throw as a mandatory ranged attack, but we don't NEED it's rage gen. reduce the CD to 15 seconds, drop the 10m min range necessity, and move the rage gen off to another skill (or give it just one or two instead). Force push should be 30 seconds by default, and drop the silly talent that reduces its CD. whatever. give us more damage instead, or another attack. I often feel like immortal needs another unique skill to fill the gap on the rotation...that would be a perfect spot for it.

In short...I love this class, but when it comes down to it there's soooo much lacking that other classes have that make them unique. Immortal is lackluster at best, and its sad that our DPS tree has better mitigation talents. and Vengeance is fun but really needs more to combat the negatives that melee bring. I can't say anything about rage tree...but im sure a bit of extra damage wouldn't hurt it.
"I just hit 50 and finished my class storyline, but I still haven't been able to decide which AC to choose. Leveling solo as a warrior wasn't difficult, so I kept putting off the decision.
Anyone else having the same problem? "~ lagerhat - And who says warriors are broke?

CBRGhostRider's Avatar


CBRGhostRider
07.30.2012 , 01:21 AM | #103
Just wanted to say real quick... Bravo... well said Elyx!

I have a three 50s and a 25 assassin at this point, and the immortal tree is by far the ABSOLUTE WORST TREE I have seen in the game so far. Look at what the assassins get in darkness, and especially their upper tiers, wither, harnessed darkness, mounting darkness, nerve wracking, electrify... . Compare to immortal... LOL... In fact once I level up my assassin I will do a tier by tier comparison, should be interesting..

Anyway, hope the devs take some serious notice and redesign this poor tree.... Also vengence needs stronger DoTs.

Kthxbai

Coplann's Avatar


Coplann
08.09.2012 , 07:54 AM | #104
Immortal/Rage Hybrid currently. Mainly PvPing...

1. How do you think your Juggernauts spec is perceived by other classes?
  • Immortal: can be ignored in PvP until everyone else is dead, but good at defending a healer
  • Rage: one trick pony, but very powerful if fully DPS speced and geared accordingly

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
  • Immortal: going 31 points here is a waste, Immortal/Vengeance or even Immortal/Rage Hybrid builds offer same or better survivability
  • Rage: skill layout is suboptimal for hybrid specs (if you stay in Soresu-Form you have to waste some points just for improved Smashing)
  • Overall: PvP-tank gear is suboptimal unless defense and shield also helps versus tech and force attacks
Coplann, Operative (T3-M4. formerly Force Harvester)
Takemaru, Juggernaut
Shakat, Sorcerer
Durhan, Mercenary

UncleOst's Avatar


UncleOst
08.09.2012 , 03:26 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by CommunitySupport View Post
Hi everyone,

We’re looking for some specific feedback about each Advanced Class and spec. Your feedback here, along with other feedback we’ve been gathering and our internal metrics, may guide future class balance changes. Similar threads will be found in every Advanced Class forum.

Here are the two questions that we’d like to ask (please only post about specific specs that you actively play, and don’t forget to tell us which one you’re talking about!):

1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
2. How do you perceive your own spec?

Please answer the post using the same format and in no more than 2-3 sentences per question.

This is not a discussion thread, so please do not debate others’ feedback – everyone gets to share what they think. Any off-topic or unconstructive posts (or any that do not follow the above guidelines) will be removed without warning.

Remember, this isn’t the only thread we’re looking at for feedback – if you have more feedback than fits the above guidelines, please feel free to post a discussion thread. We’re looking to get some specific insights here, but we are always reading the forums to gather feedback and player concerns.

Thank you!
1. Most players I pvp with would prefer another class instead of a jug...regardless of spec. It is amusing, yet unfortunate they feel so. In pvp with good gear, jugs can be devastating.

2. Tank spec pve....utterly ruthless and engaging, by far my favourite class. PVP however..tank spec feels lacklustre and disheartening. Dps spec pvp...a little formulatic, but deadly when all abilities are available.

Side note. Never understood why certain abilities are only useable in pve. In the jug's case, the abilities I refer to would truly spice up jug pvp gameplay. As it would with any class.

UncleOst's Avatar


UncleOst
08.09.2012 , 03:38 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by CommunitySupport View Post
Hi everyone,

We’re looking for some specific feedback about each Advanced Class and spec. Your feedback here, along with other feedback we’ve been gathering and our internal metrics, may guide future class balance changes. Similar threads will be found in every Advanced Class forum.

Here are the two questions that we’d like to ask (please only post about specific specs that you actively play, and don’t forget to tell us which one you’re talking about!):

1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
2. How do you perceive your own spec?

Please answer the post using the same format and in no more than 2-3 sentences per question.

This is not a discussion thread, so please do not debate others’ feedback – everyone gets to share what they think. Any off-topic or unconstructive posts (or any that do not follow the above guidelines) will be removed without warning.

Remember, this isn’t the only thread we’re looking at for feedback – if you have more feedback than fits the above guidelines, please feel free to post a discussion thread. We’re looking to get some specific insights here, but we are always reading the forums to gather feedback and player concerns.

Thank you!
1. Most players I pvp with would prefer another class instead of a jug...regardless of spec. It is amusing, yet unfortunate they feel so. In pvp with good gear, jugs can be devastating.

2. Tank spec pve....utterly ruthless and engaging, by far my favourite class. PVP however..tank spec feels lacklustre and disheartening. Dps spec pvp...a little formulatic, but deadly when all abilities are available.

Side note. Never understood why certain abilities are only useable in pve. In the jug's case, the abilities I refer to would truly spice up jug pvp gameplay. As it would with any class.

Botho's Avatar


Botho
08.14.2012 , 10:46 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by CommunitySupport View Post

1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
2. How do you perceive your own spec?
Should note im a Guardian not a Jugg but I didnt see this kinda thread over there so Im a jugg for the day

1. As a Tank not completly inneffective but definetly worse than the other two.

2. In tanking spec (the only spec I ever use) I have to say Ive tanked everything the game has to offer, All the HM Op's Knighmare Op's, 8 and 16 man HM Denova and killed it all. Ive Played Assassin Tank in most of the same content as well and I gotta say, Incomming damage wise there's no real difference, BUT when I tank on Sin I dont have to rely on taunts to fix things because its not nessisary the aggro is just way more solid, not to strong but more sufficient. jugg/Grd is definetly more work for the same result and with multi targets pretty much impossible to beat a Sin or a PT..

I think truthfully a lot of this could be fixed by making Crushing blow a 3 target skill without having to build sunder first and possibly lowering its CD a little, i mean its 15secs, the Sin version which is wither is 7.5secs traited properly and not white damage either. Also maybe lower the CD of Backhand to I dunno 30secs or sumthing? 1min is pretty harsh

Also more damage across the board!


p.s Would it be a terrible thing to make Foce power on our weapons to just be plain power, or a new Melee power stat

Eurynamous's Avatar


Eurynamous
08.17.2012 , 04:15 AM | #108
I play and have always played a Juggernaut Vengeance build character, it's the build that has the most appeal to me.

1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
A: I feel that my class is under appreciated because we can bring less to the table than other Melee classes.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
A: Though I enjoy the class, I find that great abilities like pommel and savage kick have too strict of a pre-requisite to utilize and it narrows our rotation down to boring. If the pre-requisite were to have periodic damage as a requirement, the abilities would open up our DPS more and elevate the abilities above trash only.

All in all, I love the class and the build the most out of all I have played. I feel too gear dependent and a lot of my abilities are under utilized even though they have such great appeal.
The Red Zone
Amadus Starcrusher
I will take your light, force you into darkness and give you true freedom and power

_Zorth_'s Avatar


_Zorth_
08.17.2012 , 07:37 AM | #109
1. I'm both a Tank juggernaut and a Vengeance juggernaut, I tank in operations and like to DPS in PvP. The way I see it it's one of the most balanced classes in PvP and in PvE DPS wise. But it feels as if certain raid groups would rather have a marauder in operations and ranked PvP groups. Right now the only thing that keeps getting me into ranked teams is my ability to taunt and jump to targets more frequently than a marauder. So I think that you guys should either give the juggernaut something equally desirable since at the moment marauders have higher DPS than juggernauts, better party buffs and better defensive cooldowns.

My solution would be to nerf their party buffs and defensive CD's in warzones and heighten their damage output so that the high damage is the thing that's desirable and not their other perks.

As a tank I feel like i'm vastly underpowered compared to Powertech and Assassin tanks. I have a very low damage output compared to those classes and can neither penetrate armor nor can I stealth as a juggernaut tank in PvP. In PvE I feel as if it's much more balanced because my defensive cooldowns, heavy armor and talent tree skills make up for it.

2. I think my own specs both Vengeance DPS and Tank are extremly balanced. The only thing that is overkill for juggernauts is the free force charge after using force push, It's a talent that can easily win a game of hutball if one team has a juggernaut while the other one does not. So that talent should not be passive for all juggernauts but instead put inside the Immortal tree more as a PvP talent that allows Tank juggernauts to be the ones to score hutball goals easier and not just the class in general.
The Red Eclipse
Best Player World Wide
..Greedo shot first

rastabuds's Avatar


rastabuds
08.17.2012 , 06:42 PM | #110
1. How do you think your Juggernaut spec is perceived by other classes?
2. How do you perceive your own spec?

1. I mainly pvp with my With my jugg i am running the typical immortal veng hybrid since it is simply better damage then full immortal spec and does a little better with damage reduction than the full tank spec does. The fact that this point is true is proof that the kind folks at bioware really need to rework the immortal tree. I dont care how people view my class i do not dps with it because if i want t melee dps ill use my marauder, it is way better at that anyways. I use my jugg as a body guard for my sorc healer on the fatman server. The people who play with me know that when it comes to body guarding the healer i am the alpha and omega simple as that. Now in fps and ops i am simply not best suited for large group aggro control like a pt or sin tank is.

2. I love my class i can keep my sorc healer and my self alive and guarding a node almost indefinitely. I just force leap then intercede back to her all while healing myself and adding to her damage mitigation, long as i manage my cds right i have held 6 dps on a voidstar for 3 mins while they just beat on us and our team finally got enough of a window to pop the door and then i just force slow them in the hallway and we normally just roll them the rest of the way.. I bring utility and great protection to any group i am with. If the opposing team is to stupid to go after my healer i just toss my guard on the nearest mara or pt and let them go to town while my sorc just sits back and heals. If you know what you are doing there is no tank better at keeping a healer alive. I have played with many pt tanks and sin tanks and yes the sin tanks out dps both me and the pt tanks and the pts out dps me but as body guard goes my healer always has more healing done and about 1/2 the deaths. Plus i also always seem to have the highest prot no matter what and i am the only tank i have seen that when i have all my cds up i can stop any dps train in its tracks. So in the end i am a speed bump in pvp that can really hold up several targets and if my sorc healer is playing well then we just dont die less she goes oof and then i slow hit the aoe peel and run like hell. ^^