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Aaoogaa's Avatar


Aaoogaa
07.23.2012 , 01:52 PM | #101
PVE - Tank - boring, idiot friendly, under powered damage for solo work after the last huge nerf to damage output.
PVE - Vigilance - fun, exciting, the closest to the Jedi in the movies that you see.

PVP - Tank - Cannot kill anything but can provide annoyance to others. It's sad to watch your team mates get ground down around you because you cannot provide enough damage to eliminate the threat after you have cycled your taunts and other abilities to keep them safe.

PVP - Vigilance - fun and furious...a great combination of damage and protection to keep your team mates up and kill what is trying to kill them. Great mobility...possibly my favorite class to play in PVP. I enjoyed playing a recruit geared Guardian much more then playing my Battlemaster geared trooper. This advanced class is friggin fun when playing the Vigilance spec.
-I would rather pay for a great game than play a poor game for free.
-Viable and worthwhile are not the same when it comes to class design.
55 Commando - 50 Gunslinger - 50 Guardian
Beta tester...loved the game, hate what it has become.

esos's Avatar


esos
07.24.2012 , 07:19 AM | #102
1. How do you think your Guardian spec is perceived by other classes?
- Others think Guardian is bad DPS (vigilance)
- Good Tank

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
- I think guardian is good DPS(vigilance)
- Good Tank
Esos
Founder of Heroes of Northstar

Pingonaut's Avatar


Pingonaut
07.24.2012 , 08:25 AM | #103
1. How do you think your Guardian spec is perceived by other classes?
I think it depends on how I do when I'm tanking. Assuming I do well and keep aggro that makes them perceive the guardian class as a good tanking class. I've always seen it as a great tanking class.
2. How do you perceive your own spec?
I love playing a tank, so I can't say much about vigilance or focus (but I've heard they're up there in damage.) And I've noticed the threat works a lot better than it used to. I'd say until you get AoE taunt tanking and keeping aggro is a bit difficult, but its still fun. Guardian is my favorite class/spec so far!

ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
07.24.2012 , 09:07 AM | #104
From one of my guildmembers as his time schedule doesn't allow him at the moment to come and post:


1. How do you think your Guardian spec is perceived by other classes?

Guardian spec is a tank/dps class.Mostly used as a tank, Most other classes look for a good tank for heroics so i guess guardians are seen as pretty important.Rp wise , guardians are the original form of the jedi
A southern girl is a girl who knows full well that she can open a door for herself but prefers for the gentleman to do it because it demonstrates a sense of respect. Current Guild Roleplay: Redemption: The battle of Xa Fel https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...ps/r-1rAjOuo30

JediFlux's Avatar


JediFlux
07.25.2012 , 09:05 PM | #105
Guardian Tank Elite Warlord/MT for Top Progression Guild on Beregon Colony

PVP tank on the top rated team on our server and PVE tank for server first clear of EC HM.

So where do I begin. I guess PVE. I think that PVE is ok. We obviously do less damage than the other tanks that is quite clear. Our aggro is a lot better since 1.3, but there was no reason to nerf our damage. Hilt Strike is on a 1 minute cd and guardian slash is a 31 point talent. The changes to threat and force sweep were enough you should just change those 2 back. If you play the class well they are excellent tanks. I think they are a bit spikier to heal, but I wouldn't change us because there is no better tank for dealing with enrage. Yes I know you might say if we did better damage we wouldn't hit it anyways....but sometimes dps dies and they get battle rezzed or just die towards the end and you need that extra 10 or 15 secs to kill the boss. The two other tanks melt....we don't. As for everyone who swears that somehow you need to go into the vigilance tree to tank is wrong. Just having an extra 5 secs on Enure is huge since I use it all the time to help the healers. If you have threat problems then you aren't in a good rotation....and yes its ok to have to taunt....tanks feel like they have to keep aggro without ever taunting.

Ok so for pvp. I am probably the best person to have on a team sometimes and the worst. In a rated team guarding a healer full time there is no one better than a guardian tank. Yes I am in full tank pvp set as well. With guardian leap and the stuns that we have it makes for a game changer in rated where healers and their tanks melt. With all of our cooldowns when we get lower and the other team calls for a switch to the tank guarding the healer we can pop cds to allow the healers to catch us up. I wouldn't mind a ranged AE for Novare Coast that is circular around me that is larger than the miniature range of force sweep. Cyclone slash is spammable but its so limited(Also you run out of force) and having to single target everyone to interrupt is awful. It doesn't have to be something that hits hard just to interrupt. I mean I am already a melee so I can be rooted and can't interrupt if my one ranged 30 sec ability is on cd. Again, I think we are pretty good except again our damage is so terribly low. It makes it that when even one person is beating on your healer you can't really kill them at any manageable rate.

Some observations of what some of the people above have said. Giving Unremitting to tanks is bad. I mean you don't want it. I specced into a hybrid just to get unremitting. At first I was like...cool...I don't get stunned or knocked back the second I leap in. The problem is if you are a tank your job is to survive and protect nodes etc. So when you leap in you are still getting dpsed.....so when you are at like 70% and your unremitting is gone....then you get stunned. Then all of the defensive abilities you have including saber ward are useless and if 3 or 4 people are on you they can stun lock you before resolve and boom you are dead. Contrary to no unremitting....getting stunned from the beginning full resolve by the time you are at 30% or so....then pop your cds and medpack....and now you are defending the node until rezzers get back.

I think that the top tiers of the defense tree should be changed slightly. If you go far enough like where cyclonic sweeps is you should just eliminate the soresu penalty on focus. A guardian tank if not being beat on has no focus and spends half their time hitting sundering strike to generate focus. Who cares if a tank has endless focus so we can spam slash haha? It would make it so we could get some slashes in. Do you know how many times I have no focus after I riposte and dispatch and can't finish someone? The way the trees are set up for pvp you have to take freezing force since no focus on your slow is huge. So you can't get the reduction to focus on riposte which is really bad since it eats your focus. If we had a lot more focus we could dps a little better(we still don't have the abilities to do any real damage all of our high damage abilities are on long cds.) The last thing I would say is that if you spec to be a tank especially with pvp the reduction to elemental and internal damage should be increased. Again, its so far in the tank tree that 4% is pitiful. There are soooooo many attacks that can't be deflected or shielded that should be 10% or 15% there is no reason that a tank shouldn't have the reduction since they aren't going to do damage to the other player and kill them with that reduction.

P.S. That 4% reduction that is supposed to be there does not appear on my character sheet when you look at the damage reduction versus all four damage types. I don't know if that is a bug that it doesn't show on the character sheet or that we aren't even getting the reduction at all.

I think I forgot a couple of things that I wanted to mention from what I read above/my observation but if I remember I will edit my post. Hope this helps. By the way we are really good ball carriers in huttball, but vanguard and shadow tanks are better at getting the ball back with pulls into fire etc. Trying to aim a push into a fire is really hard. So its a give and take there where we can score better, but they defend better so its a good balance/tradeoff in my opinion.

SebastianII's Avatar


SebastianII
07.27.2012 , 03:26 PM | #106
I play Vigilance spec.

1. Regarding other player's perception of guardian dps seems to be on an uphill battle. From release the community wanted to perceive this class as an all tank class, even though two of the trees are listed as dps trees. As the game has gone on, some people have had there opinions changed, or more likely came to a better understanding of game mechanics and advanced class structure. Unfortunately some prejudices remain. Often people will spam chat for flashpoints or operation stating they do not want a guardian or knight dps. I was recently kicked from a group finder group for a story mode false emperor because I was a guardian dps. When the idea prevails that a guardian is supposed to be a tank and a tank alone, we have a problem.

2. I for the most part find vigilance to be working and I enjoy the class. I pvp and pve often with the same build. What I see as the problem is a lack of uniqueness and lack of originality. Let me be clear, something needs to be changed to make us stand out while still remaining balanced. Most of the tree works as intended but a few skills and talents I perceive as worthless, which makes vigilance guardian builds very similar.

First is the accuracy talent. I think the original intent with this skill was a through back to beta where I've read that over 100% accuracy penetrated armor, but at the release of the game this mechanic was changed. With all the accuracy available to guardians on end game gear is this talent really necessary? It seems a waste of 3 points and honestly other guardians probably take it to continue up the tree, not because it makes the spec that much better. If the developers feel vigilance needs an accuracy boost, then you need to just tie it into shien form. If the intent was some minor armor penetration for guardians then the skill needs to be changed.

Gather strength, which I feel is supposed to be our burst talent, and in the rare occasion that it gets to proc its great but way too often that isn't the case. The first problem is unremitting. This is a great talent in vigilance, but works against gather strength. If I can proc a resistance to impairment moving effects then I'm also procing a resistance to my burst talent. Second problem is force leap cooldown. Force leap is a baseline mechanic for the guardian and often used as an opener. If the class the guardian is fighting counters with an ability that will proc gather strength they have now moved away from you and you moving slowly wasting the proc because the gap closer is on cooldown. Maybe force leap needs a reduced cooldown, or needs a proc reset to go with gather strength, or maybe gather strength needs a mechanic change that causes it to proc in the first place. Finally, I never see this skill proc in pve, because the tank is usually doing his job. In the rare occasion pve procís gather strength, a wipe follows closely behind.

Focused Defense, the new skill added in 1.2, is only useful as a threat dump. It hinders focus generation that a dps needs to continue fighting. The only time I ever use it is in pick-up group flashpoints when I pull a boss off a tank. That use aside, the slight heal and the defense boost isnít worth the focus loss. Why should the dps capabilities be limited because of an emergency situtation? Shouldn't it be the reverse where the most powerful attacks can go off when in an emergency?

Finally, where are the shien stance required skills/talents? Focus has Zephyrean Slash and Visionary which require Shii-Cho form in their second tier. Defense has Lunge, Guard Stance, and Courage which require Soresu form. All Shien has is narrowed focus. (On a side note narrowed focus needs a tweaking as well. I get the whole help shien build focus idea, but honestly when are you taking a ton of aoe damage to build focus and living to use it? I see this only helping in raid and even then itís not as glamorous either. It can stay or go, but if it stays something a little better needs to set it off.) There needs to be more skills that require shien form. Ultimately, you can skip shien and narrowed focus and still use the entire rest of the tree and this makes it not a shien form tree.

What I want to see in vigilance isnít a buff, but a change in attitude towards this class and build. What needs to be laid out are changes that make this type of guardian different in its own right, so when put in group setting for pve or pvp they see the shien form and know that build alone brings some specific thing to the table other guardian builds donít and other classes donít either.
Starpath Legacy
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nwojedi's Avatar


nwojedi
07.31.2012 , 12:12 AM | #107
Ok....if you have to ask the question "how this class is perceived by other classes", then that means that there needs to be "FIXES" to that class. Compared to other tanking classes the knight is at the bottom. No dps, endurance, armor increase. The 3 things a viable tank spec needs we dont have. Single target threat has almost never been an issue. I think the biggest issue that most people have with threat be it single target or aoe is that the damage is not where it should be. If ability A says it does 1000-1300 damage, i should not see it do 799 damage. Granted, max damage is increased and scales by gear but minimum should not be.
Specs are dependent on playstyle. Not the best in the game and close to the worst. Althought pure dps knights can hold there own, pure defense suffers and almost makes you go hybrid

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
08.20.2012 , 09:39 AM | #108
Guardian DPS spec: Vigilance with some tanking thrown in

1. I think other people see my guardian as a dependable and reliable ally. They know I can survive a reasonable amount of time (i.e. I'm not squishy). A meat-and-potatoes sort of class.

2. I see my guardian as fun to play. I like its mobility and utility. I can switch forms for different effects, and use shield or focus. It can take a lot of punishment. Its skill tree is versatile, I can experiment allocating points here and there to customise my build.
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasnít fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Andrew_Past's Avatar


Andrew_Past
08.20.2012 , 06:50 PM | #109
I spec as 4/33/4 and do mostly organized PVP. I have completed all end game ops as well.

1. How do you think your Guardian spec is perceived by other classes?
In general, most people I see people pay attention to other DPS before a Vigilance Guardian. However, those who recognize a good Vigilance Guardian do play much more carefully. I am eventually treated as a legitimate threat.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?
Very strong, when played right. However, I feel as though there is more effort involved in playing Vigilance "right" than some other DPS specs, such as Assault Vanguards.
And'rew - Guardian || And'ria - Sentinel || Praeteria - Juggernaut
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Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
08.21.2012 , 02:18 AM | #110
I play:
Tank PvE raiding HM EC 18/23 hybrid spec
DPS PvE raiding HM EC Full vigilance spec
PvP what ever im currently speced.

1. How do you think your Guardian tank spec is perceived by other classes?

We are percieved as OK tanks. Our survivability is considerd as OK our dps and threat are awful. Dispite the changes we are are considered primarily single target tanks - but that is just fine by most people.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

Hybrid tank is currnently best guardian spec for survivablity - i find im hard to kill in HM EC full BH gear (but we have good healers) our defensive cool downs mean we are good in emergency situations - i would prefer that i could generate my threat from abilities saving taunt for other things, i really really wish more of our threat came from dps (I HATE high threat mechanics so hated the 1.3 changes) - i like that i have a range of high utility skills as guard tank i feel potent except for my wet noodle threat/DPS output.

It would be good if guardian slash had a shorter cool down and either did aoe immedialty or not at all. Guardian slash is serously broken and i was not at all concerned to give it up when i went hybrid. Make guardian slash proc blade barrier, give the 3 points in blade barrier the added ability to lower the cool down of guardian slash. Make guardian slash single target and put the damage back where it was or improve it a little on that.

I love that i can tank by moving and hitting i dont care about aoe too much i am happy with the improvments to force sweep on this front, our mobility means we are ok in trash situations. many people dont know how to tank well with guardians in aoe and thats fine - maybe more people would stick with the game if you gave them a label 'only take this class if your a good player or want to put in effort'

It would be good if hilt strike was turned into an ability that used the pointy end of the saber i HATE that i hit stuff with my hilt thats totally not in the feel of star wars.

It would be good if saber throw did high threat and affected multipul targets (smart aoe) and this required tatent points.

It would be really really good if i could spec full tank and it was better than hybrid (just shift commanding Awe and unremitting to guardian)

Guardian tanks need some parity with vanguard tanks i.e. equivalency re damage reduction from armour.


Thanks for this oppotunity

EDIT: i have made a second post for vigilance to make what i am saying clearer