I have been thinking for a while that "something" is missing from our class (talking of concealment only), however I have not come to the conclusion that other people have appeared to make. I do not believe our problems are that we have no gap closer in fact our base speed is higher and our ranged root go a long way to make us very hard to escape from (for tech based classes toxin scan as well). I find that our issue has a lot to do with the design of the class and I will try to explain my case to whomever it may concern.

 

The main design of every single target DPS class has been a rotation of 3 strong abilities with relatively short cooldowns (15s or less) for example a pyro-tech will have Thermal detonator, railshot, and the second railshot proc which is a combo that takes about 15s to reset and continue, the deception assassin has a 6 second rotation of voltaicx2, maul (on proc or some other melee ability) followed by a shock, which is done twice to be on par with the pyrotech. The operative conversely does Hidden strike, backstab and explosive probe, seems fairly reasonable at first glance, but the issue is the sustainability of the rotations. Pyro and deception can continually use their rotation where the operative hinges on being in stealth. To me this puts hidden strike not as a "damage move" like the others that have been listed but in the same realm as assassinate (30% execute). If you also research the abilities listed for the operative that backstab is a 12 second CD ability, explosive probe is 30s and hidden strike is 7.5, meaning in the best case this "combo" can only be done once every 30 seconds which is double the timing of other classes.

 

Now if we assume from a balance standpoint that this was done to make the operatives Hidden strike a fearful move to make up for the fact that it will be used once and then forgotten until you can scramble back into stealth. There is no fear of this move as it only does adequate damage, there are other force/tech abilities that do more damage than this move, can be auto-crit (meaning they can forgo putting any crit into their gear), and AoE. Now with that said I am not advocating a buff for Hidden strike or a nerf of smash, what I am trying to express is that something is missing from operatives and no one seems to notice.

 

The item I believe that is missing is another ability that is used out of stealth, my thoughts are to tie jarring strikes to open the ability to use Hidden strike outside of stealth, however when used this way it will not cause a knockdown (perhaps not generate TA either). To balance the new Hidden strike the cool down will have to be changed as well to what I would suggest as 12 seconds for greater synergy with backstab. This would also allow for more up time on acid blade's poison increasing Operative DPS substantially while keeping burst the exact same.

 

Other things that feel out of place:

1. Degrading energy regen on a burst class (punishing a burst class for bursting)
   
2. 12s Interrupt CD (most other melee classes have a base of 8, but sins and operative have 12)
   
3. Oddly paired defensive cool downs for the class (Low CD defensives to be used multiple times for a class that opens to control the target, doesn't synergize well)
   
4. The Dice-roll for damage on opener (ie if it doesn't crit it does laughable damage)
   

^ I am not really saying this list needs to be changed but I would like to know why these design choices were made in this fashion. A parting note is that Operative damage will increase by quite a bit when they sort out the combat bugs that tend to keep the class in combat for 30-60 seconds after combat, or how an explosive dart that goes off after the pyrotech's death makes you locked in combat with the respawned character... this is wrong sooooooooo wrong.

 

Anyway I would like some feedback on what you guys think about this idea as well as I would like to see us more viable but not overpowered.

 

TLDR; Take your medication and read it through.

Personally I think this is a great post and would love to see an intellectual discussion come about from this thread.

 

There is not enough open discussion on concealment in the PvP environment, it's always the same comparisons being drawn against each other, the same scenarios being aired out to the community - (assasins/shadows vs conc. operatives, AC priority in a ranked team leaving conc. operatives on the bench, lack of viability due to poor gap closing ability etc etc)

 

Which has led to a real lack of sensible/realistic design input from the community for the post 1.3 concealment operative, either because all of the skilled/passionate concealment operatives have given up and rerolled FOTM and/or respecced medicine leading to an air of contentment within these forums about the performance of concealment operatives and the role we play in PvP.

 

TBH I have heard the jarring strikes/ out of stealth hidden strike suggestion before and am still a bit skeptical of pushing for that change, but , imho OP has hit the nail on the head with this post and I would also love to hear some feedback from the dev team about the design choices they made for concealment operatives, especially in a PvP relevant example/scenario.

 

TLDR: Am in agreement with the OP, would love to see an explanation of concealment's viability in PvP, as what once was a bursty 'assasin' type AC , is now nothing more than a low tier dps/support AC being out performed & out shined by <insert class here>...

I thought about a "baby" version of Cloaking Screen. Maybe call it "Flick the switch" or something. Consumes a TA, puts you into stealth for a time between 1,6 and 2 seconds. Does not trigger any sprint, does not get you out of combat, requires a target, can only be used when that target is not currently (actively) attacking you. I imagine a cooldown of maybe 12-20 seconds.

 

Due to the high amount of concentration needed to perform this move with the correct timing (from a character's point of view), damage of the next ability is reduced by x%, where x is to be determined by balancing calculations.

 

This would give us more sustained damage in PvE (higher acid blade uptime), make it possible in PvP to line up some burst damage outside of our opener via Debilitate or Flashbang (both stun and incapacitating effects allowing the use of "Flick the switch" on that target), give Hidden Strike some more use during fights and, imho, fit the general theme of the AC. Maybe add a "generator recharging" debuff to it, disabling both Flick the switch and Cloaking Screen during that time. Flick the switch would apply a 8-10 second version of that debuff, cloaking screen a longer time of maybe 40-60 seconds.

 

Of course, this doesn't exactly adress the issues about gap closers etc. but I'd imagine it to be a fun mechanic. Maybe I'm wrong, not sure, as I haven't played it yet.

 

Another idea is to have a toggle switch similar to Stealth on/off, that lets you switch your stealth generator from continous to burst mode. Continous mode is what we have now, burst mode would allow you to dip into stealth every so often, keeping you there for 2 seconds or until a stealth breaking ability is used. You cannot be unstealthed by damage over time effects during those stealth bursts, other effects would still work normally. Dipping into stealth would cost eneergy and boost your runspeed by x% during the stealth period.

Switching from continous to burst mode is instant and consumes two TAs, switching back to continous mode has a cast time. This way, you could chose to play it the way it used to be, or sneak up to someone, gain the ability to actually chase and keep up to them (hopefully) while being able to use stealth abilities, at the expense of being unable to slip back into continous stealth after you killed your victim and some of your initial burst (2 TAs into stealth mode switch instead of Lacerations). Maybe also have the stealth bursts clear (some) debuffs, but disallow Cloaking Screen due to already stressed stealth generators.

 

Third idea (and I know I'm revolving around a bigger emphasis on stealth here) would be an ability to deploy external stealth generators. Ground targeted like Orbital Strike, x second cooldown (5-15 maybe), can deploy up to 3. When you set up all three generators and they are in a range of each other that'd have to be determined by balancing thoughts, you can become stealthed in a way that doesn't get you out of combat, but isn't broken by damage, does not enforce a speed penalty, resets the cooldown on Hidden Strike. This stealth, of course, fades as soon as you leave the area or one of the generators is shut down by enemies in some way (killing them, shouldn't be a one hit job, maybe take half as much time as the cooldown to deploy them).

Edited July 14, 2012 by tacito

Another idea is to have a toggle switch similar to Stealth on/off, that lets you switch your stealth generator from continous to burst mode. Continous mode is what we have now, burst mode would allow you to dip into stealth every so often, keeping you there for 2 seconds or until a stealth breaking ability is used. You cannot be unstealthed by damage over time effects during those stealth bursts, other effects would still work normally. Dipping into stealth would cost eneergy and boost your runspeed by x% during the stealth period.

Switching from continous to burst mode is instant and consumes two TAs, switching back to continous mode has a cast time. This way, you could chose to play it the way it used to be, or sneak up to someone, gain the ability to actually chase and keep up to them (hopefully) while being able to use stealth abilities, at the expense of being unable to slip back into continous stealth after you killed your victim and some of your initial burst (2 TAs into stealth mode switch instead of Lacerations). Maybe also have the stealth bursts clear (some) debuffs, but disallow Cloaking Screen due to already stressed stealth generators.

 

Third idea (and I know I'm revolving around a bigger emphasis on stealth here) would be an ability to deploy external stealth generators. Ground targeted like Orbital Strike, x second cooldown (5-15 maybe), can deploy up to 3. When you set up all three generators and they are in a range of each other that'd have to be determined by balancing thoughts, you can become stealthed in a way that doesn't get you out of combat, but isn't broken by damage, does not enforce a speed penalty, resets the cooldown on Hidden Strike. This stealth, of course, fades as soon as you leave the area or one of the generators is shut down by enemies in some way (killing them, shouldn't be a one hit job, maybe take half as much time as the cooldown to deploy them).

 

I have thought about similar ideas as well, however I have ended up negating them as restealthing in combat would become overpowered. If we have a class that every 15 seconds disappears and assists a train even if they are trying to hit you someone hitting them will change their target upon a hit. This will have too much effect on the survivability of the class (even though there is so much aoe to break us out). Unfortunately making stealth that much readily available would cause so much crying we may have a new ocean in SWTOR. but good ideas I did really like the idea of a stealth calldown in one area that could have been interesting.

 

The reason why I was trying to bring hidden strike out of stealth is because of a few things:

1) the coding already exists in the assassin tank tree (spike) with removing the required stealth portion

2) It does not add an ability

3) It does not increase the survivability of the class

4) It does not increase the energy regen of the class (it actually will make our energy disappear faster)

(there was probably a few others but... *yawn* )

Yeah, restealthing may create unwanted side effects in PvP. I'd just personally love to see some more stealth use in PvE. Especially operations. Maybe disable the stealth burst mechanic entirely in PvP, if it can't be balanced.

 

Maybe how about this: After picking some talent, grants you a passive that builds an energy charge every x seconds, every charge allowing for 2 seconds of stealth on demand. Entering stealth consumes an energy charge, this stealth does not put you out of combat. Maximum of k energy charges. You then have to chose between either using those charges in a controlled way (sustained dps) or stacking them up and releasing them one after another, in case something needs to be taken down quickly (boss vulnerabilities, dangerous adds etc.).

Maybe have the first charge take something like 15 seconds, second charge maybe 20, third charge 25 (or a similar pattern). That way, you'd have to sacrifice some sustained dps in order to build up burst potential. Activating stealth burst in this scenario would have to reset Hidden Strike cooldown to be an efficient burst utility, of course.

 

Alternatively, have it just consume Tactical Advantages and balance the burst vs. sustained aspect via energy cost. So you COULD go through a neverending chain of Hidden Strikes, because HS grants a TA and stealth burst consumes it, but only running through that rotation would leave you at 0 energy after a number of k stealth bursts.

 

Maybe add a speed boost to it, or a very short (maybe 0.5 seconds) damage immunity. To further add choices between using it offensively or to avoid a huge damage spike in an operation, or reach a target faster.

 

It's basically the very same thing as allowing Hidden Strike out of stealth, just with some flavour, yes. But I think it'd suit an AC and spec both promoted as being stealthy and hidden operatives. Not sure if anyone would favour such a (possibly overcomplicated) solution just to add some flavour.

Another new thing to keep track of is not the answer, but I did enjoy one idea and that is TA to leave combat(would have to be like 30 second CD so people don't cry so much). Tieing in with this I would suggest requiring Hidden strike to need a TA to use and put the TA generation on Backstab. This would make things be "relatively" the same and you would require 2 TA to stealth and then hidden strike (also removes initial OMG he touched me syndrome). This would allow for more flexibility and also have the added benifit of me never having to use my least favorite skill in the game (Lacerate why you take up so many skill points and still suck!?) Edited July 15, 2012 by Rizael

It annoys me that going back into stealth is so buggy. It needs to work smoother after combat disengages. If somebody hits me and runs away i shouldnt have to wait 20 secs to get back into stealth if he is half way across the map