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Post FOTJ Novel announced: Crucible

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Post FOTJ Novel announced: Crucible

Ausstig's Avatar


Ausstig
07.15.2012 , 04:35 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh View Post
I seem to recall it being mentioned at a panel... Oh well... I doubt Legacy will remain canon. Many EU book fans hate it and the comics have always been less well received than the novels. Doubt it will stay in.

As to the poster that said, "Many things still have to happen..."

Here is the working theory as to why Legacy probably won't happen. We also know that some of it can't happen now.

That was the entire point of Jacen's vision.

Jacen saw Darth Krayt on the throne of balance. He specifically changed destiny to prevent that from happening. In doing so he released Abeloth.

This caused the Sith to act.

In Legacy's history the Sith remained hidden until around 127 ABY. Abeloth however changed that and the Sith outed themselves to the entire Galaxy (including the Empire) during the Abeloth incident. This means that the Empire is now on guard for them.

Also Krayt never revealed himself in the Legacy history to Luke Skywalker. In the FotJ books he actually did, Luke now knows he is out there, something that he didn't know before.

Krayt won't make it to the throne of balance, which is required for Legacy to take place.

Likely Jacen Solo's use of flow walking disrupted the possibility for many of the events to take place that created Legacy. Instead I expect us to see a war between the Sith and the Jedi coming up that replaces the Legacy timeline.
edit; missed your opening line

At the end of the day Legacy was Dark Horses second most successful comic, after Buffy, and was better received by fans and casuals then the train wreaks that have been the multi author series, they also used the Vong more then anything after TUF, Dark Nest did it's best to pretend the war never happened and Denning seems bent on ignoring the Vong altogether, he is the main author doing this as A.A. has a Vong in "Mercy Kill". So going by that LOTF and FOTJ, should be declared non-cannon.

Also comics and novels are the same level of cannon, they can't override the other.

edit: Crucible was the name of an organization in the KOTOR comics that kidnapped people and made them become gladiators.
Have Force lightning will travel

ProfessorWalsh's Avatar


ProfessorWalsh
07.15.2012 , 07:52 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Ausstig View Post
edit; missed your opening line

At the end of the day Legacy was Dark Horses second most successful comic, after Buffy, and was better received by fans and casuals then the train wreaks that have been the multi author series, they also used the Vong more then anything after TUF, Dark Nest did it's best to pretend the war never happened and Denning seems bent on ignoring the Vong altogether, he is the main author doing this as A.A. has a Vong in "Mercy Kill". So going by that LOTF and FOTJ, should be declared non-cannon.

Also comics and novels are the same level of cannon, they can't override the other.

edit: Crucible was the name of an organization in the KOTOR comics that kidnapped people and made them become gladiators.
Comics and Novels are both C canon... Yes... However C-Canon can override C-Canon. The priority goes to the most recently published work.

Also no. The Legacy comics were not better received than say... Fate of the Jedi... Which was one of the most successful EU works out there. So yes... The novels can override the comics and it has been indicated multiple times that LA doesn't want Legacy as canon.

Note:
Though Dinas was indeed correct. The actual quote was:

"Legacy is problematic. We don't want to be constrained by the timeline presented in the comics. Recent events in the books may have served to undo some of the events depicted in the Legacy comic book series or at least delay them enough so that we don't feel boxed in by the very close timeline. In general it is never a good idea to set a book "in the future" so close to the current time, personally it also seems odd, due to the lifespans of some of the races involved and the high level of medical technology, for all of the movers and shakers in the novel series to be gone in less than 200 more years."

I'll look for the video link, copied that from a transcript.
"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (P. 187 FotJ, Book II: Omen)
Host of the Jedi Council stream also author of From the Journal of Val Starwind

TonyShadman's Avatar


TonyShadman
07.15.2012 , 08:49 PM | #23
My turn to catch up on the discussion.

First of all, the Sith in Legacy do not represent the Sith from Fate of the Jedi. The One Sith movement had been existing on Korriban for a long time, talking to Lumiya even before Caedus's rise. Vestara even lied about their presence so that the Jedi have no idea of their existence or location.

I think that Legacy is a great contribution to the canon. One of the things I love about Episode 3, is that years before we knew that one day this movie would have to come out, and Anakin would HAVE to fall to the dark side, and the galaxy would HAVE to go to hell.

With Legacy it told us that in 130 years the galaxy would be a very different place and that a lot of stuff would have to happen before we got there.

As for the ranking of Canon, Star Wars has been incredible in the sense that their canon all connects. Whenever I read a Star Wars book new things that spark my interest, which in turn make me want to read more books. I remember reading about Lumiya my first time and being completely drawn in by the character. Getting my hands on marvel issues and getting a chance to see her lightwhip in action. I remember reading Krayt's real name and looking into his youth. A side character in a video game can become a main attraction one day, if the fans blog enough about it, and now everyone is takes every detail so seriously (see people's reaction to Mass Effect books) Star Wars isn't going to ditch any characters that they've invested that much time, money and attention towards. It would be a waste.

ProfessorWalsh's Avatar


ProfessorWalsh
07.15.2012 , 09:04 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyShadman View Post
My turn to catch up on the discussion.

First of all, the Sith in Legacy do not represent the Sith from Fate of the Jedi. The One Sith movement had been existing on Korriban for a long time, talking to Lumiya even before Caedus's rise. Vestara even lied about their presence so that the Jedi have no idea of their existence or location.

I think that Legacy is a great contribution to the canon. One of the things I love about Episode 3, is that years before we knew that one day this movie would have to come out, and Anakin would HAVE to fall to the dark side, and the galaxy would HAVE to go to hell.

With Legacy it told us that in 130 years the galaxy would be a very different place and that a lot of stuff would have to happen before we got there.

As for the ranking of Canon, Star Wars has been incredible in the sense that their canon all connects. Whenever I read a Star Wars book new things that spark my interest, which in turn make me want to read more books. I remember reading about Lumiya my first time and being completely drawn in by the character. Getting my hands on marvel issues and getting a chance to see her lightwhip in action. I remember reading Krayt's real name and looking into his youth. A side character in a video game can become a main attraction one day, if the fans blog enough about it, and now everyone is takes every detail so seriously (see people's reaction to Mass Effect books) Star Wars isn't going to ditch any characters that they've invested that much time, money and attention towards. It would be a waste.
They actually do that kind of thing pretty regularly.

See "The Clone Wars" and read the original Zahn trilogy. Two completely different explanations for the same named event. Yes, likely parts of Legacy will get retconned if the entire series doesn't get pushed back a hundred or more years.

Personally... I hate legacy.

Once Luke Skywalker is gone from the novels... That is the day I stop reading the EU. Star Wars dies with Luke Skywalker.
"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (P. 187 FotJ, Book II: Omen)
Host of the Jedi Council stream also author of From the Journal of Val Starwind

TonyShadman's Avatar


TonyShadman
07.15.2012 , 09:35 PM | #25
I think everyone can agree that the prequel trilogy was pretty unique. And I highly doubt that you would stop reading EU considering you write such good quality stuff set in a time so far away from Skywalker.

I'm actually in the process of re-reading the Thrawn trilogy, it's re-sparking my appreciation for Mara and Thrawn, I just have a hard time relating with Luke in most material.

I feel that he jumped to the Master role way to soon, one of the reasons I like older periods and the future is that there are more people that have been through things, and it isn't just Luke Skywalker Superstar always leading the way and guessing what to do. Even with a larger group of Jedi, he is so separated from the rest that they can't possibly see him as an equal.

ProfessorWalsh's Avatar


ProfessorWalsh
07.16.2012 , 12:16 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyShadman View Post
I think everyone can agree that the prequel trilogy was pretty unique. And I highly doubt that you would stop reading EU considering you write such good quality stuff set in a time so far away from Skywalker.
No. I'd stop. I don't even enjoy reading clone wars novels. I hated most of NJO because Luke was rarely involved. To me Star Wars is Luke Skywalker.
"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (P. 187 FotJ, Book II: Omen)
Host of the Jedi Council stream also author of From the Journal of Val Starwind

Ausstig's Avatar


Ausstig
07.16.2012 , 07:48 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh View Post
No. I'd stop. I don't even enjoy reading clone wars novels. I hated most of NJO because Luke was rarely involved. To me Star Wars is Luke Skywalker.
Thats you every one is different, I for example want more stories about Ben, I see Star Wars as a universe, not a character, thus I can play this game.

Do you consider the Prequels Star Wars as only episode 3 has Luke in it?

Also I am very surprised the FOTJ was better received then Legacy, it was not very good at all. Legacy despite it flaws, of which there are many, was a better story; all of the elements, such as plot, characters (though it was not much better then any given Allston or Golden novel, but better then Dennings') the dramatic tension and the events all interconnected, unlike a lot of FOTJ; case in point Kessel.

Also it starts off stupid, Daala should be the one on trial not Luke, for too any reasons.

I take you dislike Legacy cause it undoes Lukes work?

I dislike FOTJ cause it makes the Jedi look like Sith, Killing other jedi, over throwing the government in a viloent method when peaceful and democratic means are readily available, is not how Jedi should act.

I also take issue with Jedi in government, something both Legacy and FOTJ share.

Also the big three are LOOKING old, let them rest have Luke become the Yoda of the NJO, wise and just sort of out of the day to day fights.
Have Force lightning will travel

AlyxDinas's Avatar


AlyxDinas
07.16.2012 , 10:12 AM | #28
I'm of the general opinion, as well, that FOTJ does much more to damage Luke's character and the character of his Order than anything contained in Legacy. Really, it contains some truly reprehensible actions and rhetoric that run dangerously counter to the spirit of the IP.

I don't ever think that we will see Legacy removed or completely retcon'd. As the provided (although unsourced; literally my searches for its source only return this forum thread) quote states, the major changes we'd be likely to see involve timeline shifting and perhaps some background information. That is, you'd probably see changes to the timeline and some minor details changed about things the Imperial "Victory Without War" campaign attributed to Jagged Fel. They'd just say "Actually that was Jagged Fel II" or something along those lines. Easy stuff.

Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh View Post
... it has been indicated multiple times that LA doesn't want Legacy as canon.
This, however, is bit dishonest. And a projection of your own feelings about the series onto the reality of the situation. If it was a common sentiment, it would be well known sentiment.

At a bare minimum, Lucas Licensing, from what we can tell, doesn't seem to want to remove Legacy from the canon. In fact, they've made a pointed effort to keep it. The Essential Atlas, Essential Guide to Warfare, the Ultimate Visual Guides, Jedi v. Sith. Note that within these is work that outright includes FOTJ's conclusion. That is to say, that whole thing you mentioned about recent work overwriting older work? Well, any notion that Apocalypse had of Legacy being gone (of which, actually, there was...well, zero)...has already been overwritten.

It's pretty clear that they don't want to get rid of it in full. Merely make the canon a bit more free while also keeping it, if they do anything at all. Hell, the borderline metatextual notions we get in Apocalypse about it being merely delayed and not stopped pretty offer them the easiest way out if they want to adjust the timeline. "Oh, what you saw was Legacy if it had not been delayed. It still happens the exact same way, only later. It's not 127 ABY, it's really 327." Again, easy stuff.

It was, amazingly, one of the only real smart pieces of writing that Troy Denning did in that entire, terrible series.

As for this notion:

Quote:
See "The Clone Wars" and read the original Zahn trilogy. Two completely different explanations for the same named event.
See also the fact that the canon provides an explanation which doesn't retroactively remove Zahn's work from the trilogy.
'Jeos Dinas'-Ebon Hawk
Manager, The Ebon Hawk Bounty Board
"Perception Problem."

ProfessorWalsh's Avatar


ProfessorWalsh
07.16.2012 , 05:11 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Ausstig View Post
Thats you every one is different, I for example want more stories about Ben, I see Star Wars as a universe, not a character, thus I can play this game.

Do you consider the Prequels Star Wars as only episode 3 has Luke in it?
I consider them prequels that are necessary to flesh out Anakin Skywalker and thus by proxy Luke Skywalker.

Quote:
Also I am very surprised the FOTJ was better received then Legacy, it was not very good at all. Legacy despite it flaws, of which there are many, was a better story; all of the elements, such as plot, characters (though it was not much better then any given Allston or Golden novel, but better then Dennings') the dramatic tension and the events all interconnected, unlike a lot of FOTJ; case in point Kessel.
The main reason FotJ was better recieved than Legacy, to me, was that Karen Traviss, who made a lot of people angry wasn't involved in FotJ.

FotJ was also better received than NJO was.

Quote:
Also it starts off stupid, Daala should be the one on trial not Luke, for too any reasons.

I take you dislike Legacy cause it undoes Lukes work?
I dislike Legacy because it undoes Luke's work and because parts of it, to me, make very little sense. I wouldn't have any problem with Legacy if say Legacy had been 1,000 years later, not a mere 130 years later. That is too radical of a shift to happen in such a short amount of time.

Why I say such a short amount of time is because we can safely assume that Luke will live to be at least 120 years old. This is barring the fact that those with high Force Sensitivity tend to live longer normally... Normal people in Star Wars live to be 130 - 180 as it is. He's currently not even 60 yet. Meaning that all of the events of Legacy have to happen in like 25 years. 25 years is a very short time to conquer the Republic, even the Sith of TOR couldn't do it in 30 years.

Quote:
I dislike FOTJ cause it makes the Jedi look like Sith, Killing other jedi, over throwing the government in a viloent method when peaceful and democratic means are readily available, is not how Jedi should act.
You just misrepresented the entirety of FotJ in that sentence.

Makes the Jedi look like Sith? I'm sorry... Where was the part where the Jedi enslaved an entire people and then began murdering each other?

Killing other Jedi? You mean the one incident where it happened and where Saba tried to avoid that at all costs? If you are going to make a criticism at least be honest about it.

Democratic means weren't readily available. The Jedi didn't know that the Senate was about to act and had been trying to be democratic for several books. They also didn't overthrow the government. They overthrew Daala. They didn't take over anything and they did it without causing a single death and with as few injuries as humanly possible. Also, need I remind you, that the diplomatic option would not have stopped the Mandos that Daala had already deployed, diplomacy would have taken too long and would have resulted in the deaths of innocent people.

Jedi are not pacifists. They are not supposed to always avoid death. Jedi are supposed to take the most direct route possible to resolve a conflict with the minimum loss of lives as they can. In the case of what the Jedi did it resulted in 0 deaths. The diplomatic method would have resulted in hundreds if not thousands of deaths.

Jedi never let attachments get in the way of the mission. This includes such attachments as "avoidance of violence" or "diplomatic means always if available" thus trying the diplomatic route given the situation would have been completely unlike a Jedi.

Quote:
I also take issue with Jedi in government, something both Legacy and FOTJ share.
The Jedi in government issue lasted less than 1 book and in universe it was only for a week while a new Supreme Chancellor was elected. Also the Jedi only were one part of a triumvirate.

Quote:
Also the big three are LOOKING old, let them rest have Luke become the Yoda of the NJO, wise and just sort of out of the day to day fights.
In Star Wars where according to Leia 60 is the new 30... The big three are not old at all.
"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (P. 187 FotJ, Book II: Omen)
Host of the Jedi Council stream also author of From the Journal of Val Starwind

AlyxDinas's Avatar


AlyxDinas
07.16.2012 , 06:51 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh View Post
You just misrepresented the entirety of FotJ in that sentence.
Less than you think, however. Particularly the notion about the necessity of the Jedi coup. By that point, Dalaa had lost all of her clout. Sothias Saar, a recently insane Jedi, is allowed to leave the planet for Blaudu Sextus without any issues. Once this is possible, the urgency of the Jedi Temple blockade is lost since there's no justifiable cause. She'd already faced pressure from the death of Kani Asari as it was. There's riots in the street demanding she step down. Madhi Vaandt's been killed publically on the Holonet by Belok Rhal, who'd just been captured by none other than Sothias Saar. Daala has no way out. She's so massed in scandal that a vote for her dismissal would pretty much be unanimous. Doubly so when you toss in Treen and Lacerson.

The pressing threat which makes the coup necessary is supposed to be another order of Mandalorians to Klatooine but the situation is so mindbogglingly poorly written that we have every reason to believe that their employment is to Daala and not her office, regardless of whatever GA titles she bestows upon them. They're a private contractor army answerable to Daala only. She's not even presumably paying them with GA money. What's more, she's acting illegally. Her deployment of Mandalorians to Klatooine is an order she can't even legally give because it is an incursion into Hutt Space. Klatooine is not a part of the GA and thus, she has no right to intervene. When the Mandalorians act, therefore, they're not acting on authority of the Office of the Chief of State of the GA but for a private contractor. We know this because know that Daala's money is still good enough to the Madalorians even after she is incarcerated that she buys a rescue. Realistically, the coup should have done nothing to stop the Mandalorians heading to Klatooine. But we're supposed to believe that plot point....well, just because.

The bottom line is that the fact that Sothias Saar was able to get off planet (when he should be subject to more scrutiny than most Jedi) makes the apparent need to launch StealthXs to Pydyr and the later need to scramble to stop impending the attack on Klatooine utterly ridiculous. In fact, it completely undermines Kenth's death and Plan Delta because it flat out marks them as not necessary. If the Jedi wanted to send people to stop the Mandalorians on Klatooine they could. I can outline, using just the information of the text, simple ways in which the Jedi could have undone the blockade, how they could have reach Pydyr, how they could have intervened at Klatooine, and better yet, how Kenth could have survived and Daala could have been removed from office without a single fired stun bolt from a blaster.

If you wish, I could could even go on to outline why the situation in the series is flat out wrong in what it expects the readers to believe about the Jedi and their justifications for their actions. And, Hell, this is pretty much one single plot point. If we need to get started about the utterly repulsive "Maybe balance means eternal war between Sith and Jedi" nonsense that we get by the end of the series, we can open up a whole entirely different but equally vile can of worms.

The truth of the matter is that that if any series did irreparable damage to Luke and to the Jedi, FOTJ was it. I expect my Jedi to be smart. I expect my heroes to be better than me, which shouldn't be hard because I'm a pretty terrible person. What I got was a bunch of petulant children who barely even attempted to guide things away from violence and conflict. Instead, they fed on it. Welcomed it. Used it as a political tool. Sought to let it grow in order to justify talking points. Repeated the mistakes of the old Order and then made complete mockeries of themselves with their belligerence.

Worse yet, they proved Daala right. Natasi Daala, a brain damaged, mass murdering war criminal...ended up having her point proven right. Think about that.

FOTJ didn't have Jedi. It had thugs with lightsabers.
'Jeos Dinas'-Ebon Hawk
Manager, The Ebon Hawk Bounty Board
"Perception Problem."