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PvE Annihilation Marauder: Relic Help?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
PvE Annihilation Marauder: Relic Help?

Gruddy's Avatar


Gruddy
07.12.2012 , 12:02 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Pestulan View Post
Not really. Because your numbers inflate the difference between Str and Power. Using .21 and .23, you see that Power has 10% more bonus damage than Str. Using 5:1 and 4:1 implies that Power is 20% better.
Yarly!

Allow me to correct the logic by clarifying that, in your current interpretation of my rounded numbers, using the 5:1 and 4:1 ratios (since 5:1 is 20%, and 4:1 is 25%), im saying that Power is 5% better - when in fact its closer to 2%. But now we're just splitting hairs :P

Read thoroughly and not just what you want to read, I made the adjustment as per your point in the "fairness" of my numbers, whereby making the power ratio addendum to a 4.35:1 instead of 4:1.. where 4.35:1 is the same as saying 23% (or .23), just a different way in looking @ the same thing; they will both equal (roughly) the same number when applied correctly.

Yet after all this, I already provided the numbers much earlier in my previous post(s), you simply read what you wanted to and disregarded the rest

Hopefully we're on the same page now.
May your pants never falter, even when they're optional.

Quantemoq's Avatar


Quantemoq
07.13.2012 , 07:49 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Gruddy View Post
I don't discount your point in that Strength increases critical chance, that is an obvious point (I hope) that no one disagrees with (myself included). However, it has been described to me that 50% critical chance is the cap for critical chance, whereby obtaining anymore would be a pointless endeavor on my part and a misappropriation of stat weights. Operating under this assumption as being true, a marauder's particular spec influences their choices in the requisite mods and enhancements.

In other words, concerning the variances in specs, as being Anni spec, my melee critical chance goal is 30% raid buffed. So the net return on critical chance diminishes for my particular spec after 30%, whereby making strength augments less valuable to my overall performance than power augments.

Assuming all things being equal, if my melee critical chance is 30%, with the Malice talent from the rage tree, my force critical chance is then 36%. I then add the Juyo Form modifier of 15% (from 5 stacks of Juyo Form) to reach 51% critical chance with my bleed effects. Considering then that 40% of Anni damage comes from bleeds, I have reached the critical chance threshold on which my Anni spec will allow without diminishing returns, and therefore misappropriating stat weights.

If I were say Carnage or Rage spec, I would have to change my stat weights and thus be inclined to subscribe to the linear logic of Critical chance increases my damage.

TL : DR

Strength not only increases bonus damage, but also critical strike chance - something we all (should) know. However, when considering which spec you are running with, valuing crit over bonus damage would be negligent on the part of the player.
from what i understood you are assuming that no matter how high your buffs/abilities or stats are your crit chance will be 'hard capped' at 50% and therefore you will not gain the +15% of the juyo form bonus crits when your have above 35% critchance already

you realize that this would make feats like recklessness (http://www.torhead.com/ability/cAzQA13/recklessness) that increase assasin's/sorcs force crti chance by 60%, illogical by definition. and also explosive fuels of powertech will tell you otherwise since they crit more then 50% (more like 75% with pvp set) with their rail shot when it is active (with explosive fuels you can can actually see your crit chance got to 60% + even in your sheet).

what i think your friend meant by crit chance having a 'cap' at 50% is that if you take the 5% base chance +5% sniper buff you cannot get higher then 50% with the bonus from mainstat and crit rating (since 1500 points of crit rating give +27% and 2000 mainstat +12% a total of 49%)

Pestulan's Avatar


Pestulan
07.13.2012 , 09:09 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Gruddy View Post
Yarly!

Allow me to correct the logic by clarifying that, in your current interpretation of my rounded numbers, using the 5:1 and 4:1 ratios (since 5:1 is 20%, and 4:1 is 25%), im saying that Power is 5% better - when in fact its closer to 2%. But now we're just splitting hairs :P

Read thoroughly and not just what you want to read, I made the adjustment as per your point in the "fairness" of my numbers, whereby making the power ratio addendum to a 4.35:1 instead of 4:1.. where 4.35:1 is the same as saying 23% (or .23), just a different way in looking @ the same thing; they will both equal (roughly) the same number when applied correctly.

Yet after all this, I already provided the numbers much earlier in my previous post(s), you simply read what you wanted to and disregarded the rest

Hopefully we're on the same page now.
Please stop telling me to read more closely, when you are still making the same mistakes.

In relation to each other, which is the relevant point, 4:1 is 20% better than 5:1 ( or 5:1 is 25% worse, if you'd rather look at it that way), when in fact the difference in value is much lower than that.

Just use the .20 (.21 w/ Sorc/Sage buff) and .23 actual values rather than misleading estimates, and you won't have that problem.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
07.13.2012 , 03:07 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Gruddy View Post
However, it has been described to me that 50% critical chance is the cap for critical chance, whereby obtaining anymore would be a pointless endeavor on my part and a misappropriation of stat weights. Operating under this assumption as being true, a marauder's particular spec influences their choices in the requisite mods and enhancements.
Unfortunately this is incorrect. The only real critical cap is 100% (for obvious reasons). Besides that, critical chance is just the 5% base, plus bonuses/buffs/talents, plus up to 30% from critical rating and 30% from your main stat. Of course, both critical rating and mainstat crit asymptotically approach their limit, so they will never actually reach it. DR is so strong on critical rating that you won't see far beyond 12% in practice, and while DR is low on your mainstat, you're limited by the available amount from current gearing levels.

There's certainly no 50% total crit chance limit, and no matter what you're not getting anywhere remotely near the 85% force crit chance needed to cap bleed crits. Thus, the added crit chance from Strength will apply its full benefit, generally eclipsing the higher bonus damage of Power.

Gruddy's Avatar


Gruddy
07.13.2012 , 05:05 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Quantemoq View Post
what i think your friend meant by crit chance having a 'cap' at 50% is that if you take the 5% base chance +5% sniper buff you cannot get higher then 50% with the bonus from mainstat and crit rating (since 1500 points of crit rating give +27% and 2000 mainstat +12% a total of 49%)
Thanks for the clarification. This is probably what the individual tried to relate to me without going into too much detail - which is not to say you went into too much detail - but rather you went to great lengths to clarify a very simple assumption I made based on the information available at the time. So thank you sir!

Quote: Originally Posted by Pestulan View Post
Please stop telling me to read more closely, when you are still making the same mistakes.

In relation to each other, which is the relevant point, 4:1 is 20% better than 5:1 ( or 5:1 is 25% worse, if you'd rather look at it that way), when in fact the difference in value is much lower than that.

Just use the .20 (.21 w/ Sorc/Sage buff) and .23 actual values rather than misleading estimates, and you won't have that problem.
Strength:
1885.8 = 377.2x
1885.8 / 377.2
x = 4.9978 or x = 5

377.2 x 5 = 1886
1885.8 x .2 = 377.16 or 377.2


Power:
918 = 211y
918 / 211
y = 4.35 or y = 4

211 x 4.35 = 917.85 or 918
918 x .23 = 211.14 or 211


Again, two different sides of looking @ the same thing, just that each equation is solving for a different variance on the numbers provided.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
Unfortunately this is incorrect...
There's certainly no 50% total crit chance limit, and no matter what you're not getting anywhere remotely near the 85% force crit chance needed to cap bleed crits. Thus, the added crit chance from Strength will apply its full benefit, generally eclipsing the higher bonus damage of Power.
Again, I do not discount the linear logic of more crit equals more white damage dps, but considering the fact that we have a limited budget in which to allocate secondary stats, I would find it remiss to then just say "alls i needs is strengths to increase my deeps" when in fact this is not the case.

What I said earlier, and i still maintain, is that on pieces of gear in which you need to maintain +critical chance, then augmenting strength would maximize your overall return; yet when maintaining power on a certain piece, it would make more sense in maximizing the overall return in using a power augment over strength when critical isn't your focus on that piece of equipment.

Strength influences the frequency of criticals to occur, yet Power influences the overall number in which the ability crits for - moreso than Strength.

What I think all of us can agree on is that all classes have a "goal" in which they work towards when optimizing gear in the constraints given to us with what is available. However, to just say Strength is greater than Power (or the opposite) is a foley - find that balance in which you're comfortable with concerning your particular spec.
May your pants never falter, even when they're optional.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
07.13.2012 , 07:56 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Gruddy View Post
What I said earlier, and i still maintain, is that on pieces of gear in which you need to maintain +critical chance, then augmenting strength would maximize your overall return; yet when maintaining power on a certain piece, it would make more sense in maximizing the overall return in using a power augment over strength when critical isnt your focus on that piece of equipment.
I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense, and I'm not going to spend time debunking it, because the inherent fallacies should be obvious at a glance.

Gruddy's Avatar


Gruddy
07.13.2012 , 11:12 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
I'm sorry.
Apology accepted
May your pants never falter, even when they're optional.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
07.14.2012 , 01:23 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Gruddy View Post
Apology accepted
Cute. Alright, let's get in to this.

It's been said already, but apparently it hasn't sunk in: crit contribution from Critical Rating has no correlation with that of Strength. They are on separate curves. They do not affect each other. Whether you have stacked power or critical rating on a piece of gear has zero effect on the fact that, point for point, Strength increases DPS more than Willpower. What you suggest has no logic to it whatsoever. There is no mystical synergy between the stats of a piece of base gear and the augments you apply to it.

On your base gear, you have a certain budget for Power and Crit Rating. You will reach a point where Crit Rating no longer improves your crit chance enough to be worth more than Power in terms of the net DPS increase, and you will reach this point far before the end of the stat budget; ergo you stack Power at this point. This doesn't affect the fact that, point for point, Strength will increase your DPS more than Power will, so for augments, where you have a free choice of what stats to stack on a 1:1 basis, you should pick Strength every time. Taking Power on any of them will result in less DPS.

Your ideas are mathematically incorrect. I don't really care if you care to try and understand this or not, but I'd rather not see other people misled.

Theninjafuzz's Avatar


Theninjafuzz
07.15.2012 , 05:21 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
Your ideas are mathematically incorrect. I don't really care if you care to try and understand this or not, but I'd rather not see other people misled.
Then let's not go misleading people that crit is actually good for Anni marauders. 25% is all you should need. Period. With 25%, that puts you at ~30% crit on white damage(raid buffed) and ~50% crit on bleeds. Coupled with the fact that Berserk is free crits on bleeds and bleeds are 40% of our damage, if not more on some fights, crit after that point is rather silly.

Your rationale puts too much stock into the fallacy that white damage crits are > increased damage on said white damage and harder hitting bleeds.
A computer beat me at chess once, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Sylvein 50 Marauder, Stunt 50 Mercenary, Syltrain 50 Assassin, Relek 50 Operative
Quote: Originally Posted by StephenReid View Post
That sounds logical... generally not the way I see people posting around here.

Lafay's Avatar


Lafay
07.15.2012 , 06:51 AM | #30
you guys are lol@math Go look in the sithwarrior forums for simulations of the different specs. They give a straight up 1:1 value of each stat for a bunch of different specs. They also explain why in some specs .97power=1STR even with the crit rate worked in, and in other specs its the other way around .97str=1power. So really, its gona depend on your spec, rotation, play style and ur current gear values before you can determin if 1 power is worth more than 1 str or vice versa. You have to take into account the constant berzerks making crit gear worthless and the fact that different abilitys take more of your bonus damage into account when calculating (most take 2X or more). Sometimes your getting 3 time the bonus from your bonus damage than normal, this is why annhiliate does roughly 3 times the damage of a regular hit but takes the same GCD, its because its taking more of your bonus damage into account.

There are a few combat(carnage)/watchman(annihiliation) simulations on there with different gear values, I think in general str is worth more in carnage, but just barely. Anni is the other way around with power being worth more but just barely. Even then you cant say its going to be the same for everyones different gear/spec/playstyle/rotation. Until somone comes out with a full formula spreadsheet, its really not worth dissing people or spreading misinformation on the internet lol.