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PvE Annihilation Marauder: Relic Help?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
PvE Annihilation Marauder: Relic Help?

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
07.11.2012 , 11:25 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Gruddy View Post
In regards to trinkets, the proc trinket actually parses (unfortunately) about 30 dps lower than the Matrix cube. I'd suggest using 2x power trinkets if you're not in the habit of utilizing an on-use power trinket. The net loss between using 2x power trinkets vs 1 power + 1 on-use power trinket is ~10 dps (but that was without using bloodthirst or power adrenals).
So I'd started this post to say "I don't get how the difference can be that big" specifically in regards to the Matrix cube vs. proc relic.

Then I did a bunch of math.

Then I checked my combat logs, and realized that I'd made a mistaken assumption.

That mistaken assumption is that the proc relic always does its listed damage.

It does not.

Then I did some more math, and my original comment came back around (it shouldn't be a 30 DPS difference, perhaps half that on a good day), but the overall premise of Matrix cube > Proc relic does seem to hold water, though by a nearly insignificant margin (1% difference in total DPS or less).

To shorten this up, the remainder is stuffed into spoilers.

Spoiler 1: How Proc Relics Actually Work, and some DPS Assumptions

Spoiler


Spoiler 2: Math For Matrix Cube, and Assumptions on DPS Impact
Spoiler


TL;DR for the lazy:
The proc relic does more DPS than you would calculate directly from the listed tooltip damage.

The Matrix Cube should generally (some assumption here!) do slightly more DPS than a proc relic, however the DPS increase is likely to be in the 0-15 range under the vast majority of scenarios.

Independent of all this, the "real" right answer should be 2x augmented PVP power relics. The impact of the 27 crit rating on the cube contributes less to overall DPS than the additional power on the PVP relics.

Gruddy's Avatar


Gruddy
07.11.2012 , 03:27 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
Actually, even without a mainstat boosting talent, Strength is going to have a higher DPS increase than Power, point for point.

LagunaD posted a helpful explanation here.
I'm by no means going to suggest that my grasp of mathematics is on par with the gentlemen in the link you provided, Aurojiin, but I appreciate the time they took in deriving solutions from their data, and the time you took in providing a response and the link. I read it, so thank you.

However, my math is much more simple and colors my interpretation of the numbers.
I'll refer to a wishlist I made before War Hero Relics were provided with the current stats they possess.
I will take the raw number (Strength and then Power) and assert that it equals the bonus damage, with the variable being the relationship between the two.

Strength:
1885.8 = 377.2x
1885.8 / 377.2
x = 4.9978 or x = 5

Power:
918 = 211y
918 / 211
y = 4.35 or y = 4

These numbers, albeit basic, suggest that my Power is greater than Strength comment to be true. Granted, you will -always- have more strength then power, yet using the assumption that both values increase linearly, then my basic equation describes the relationship of each stat in relation to +bonus damage adequately enough for me.
Cheers!
May your pants never falter, even when they're optional.

Gruddy's Avatar


Gruddy
07.11.2012 , 03:33 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post

TL;DR for the lazy:
The proc relic does more DPS than you would calculate directly from the listed tooltip damage.

The Matrix Cube should generally (some assumption here!) do slightly more DPS than a proc relic, however the DPS increase is likely to be in the 0-15 range under the vast majority of scenarios.

Independent of all this, the "real" right answer should be 2x augmented PVP power relics. The impact of the 27 crit rating on the cube contributes less to overall DPS than the additional power on the PVP relics.
The point I was making is that the Campaign Proc Relic was inferior to an inferior Matrix Cube Relic (the newer, updated one), and therefore the proc relic could not be considered BiS when an inferior matrix cube was parsing better.
I appreciate the time you took in forming the quantitative datas to better illustrate my earlier posting!
May your pants never falter, even when they're optional.

Pestulan's Avatar


Pestulan
07.11.2012 , 03:50 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Gruddy View Post
I'm by no means going to suggest that my grasp of mathematics is on par with the gentlemen in the link you provided, Aurojiin, but I appreciate the time they took in deriving solutions from their data, and the time you took in providing a response and the link. I read it, so thank you.

However, my math is much more simple and colors my interpretation of the numbers.
I'll refer to a wishlist I made before War Hero Relics were provided with the current stats they possess.
I will take the raw number (Strength and then Power) and assert that it equals the bonus damage, with the variable being the relationship between the two.

Strength:
1885.8 = 377.2x
1885.8 / 377.2
x = 4.9978 or x = 5

Power:
918 = 211y
918 / 211
y = 4.35 or y = 4

These numbers, albeit basic, suggest that my Power is greater than Strength comment to be true. Granted, you will -always- have more strength then power, yet using the assumption that both values increase linearly, then my basic equation describes the relationship of each stat in relation to +bonus damage adequately enough for me.
Cheers!
The Main stat = .2 (.21 w/ Sorc/Sage buff) damage and Power = .23 damage has been pretty well hashed out (918 x .23 = 211.14). A higher number is worse, so rounding down to 4 is inflating the benefit of Power fairly significantly.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
07.12.2012 , 01:37 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Gruddy View Post
Granted, you will -always- have more strength then power, yet using the assumption that both values increase linearly, then my basic equation describes the relationship of each stat in relation to +bonus damage adequately enough for me.
Yes, but no one is arguing against the premise that Power has higher bonus damage than Strength. The point, though, is that the added crit chance increases your DPS by more than the additional bonus damage, as is mathematically demonstrable.

Quantemoq's Avatar


Quantemoq
07.12.2012 , 09:54 AM | #16
exactly and one has to consider that even though the damage gain of both power and strength is consisstent in number.
the amount of damage of the attacks to which they are added increases.
therefore the effect of those relatively to the already existing damage decreases (100+1 =1% vs 1000+1= 0.1%)

the damage you get from crits increase by both the crit chance and the already existing base damage

(100 damage with 30% critchance and 1.75 multiplier-> +53 extra damage= 53% )
(1000 damage with 30% critchance and 1.75 multiplier-> +530 extra damage= 53%)

so the higher the damage of your attacks the higher becomes the effect of crit vs a static damage increase of power

example:
my rapid shot does 1100 max damage in tooltip.
i increase my attack power now by 37 points -> the damage increases to 1109
i increase it by a further 37 points -> damage increase to 1118 (+9 again so the boost is in fact static)

now let us assume i have 35% crit chance and 1.75% multiplier.
the average damage dealt would be 1109+(1109 x0.35x 1.75) = 1788.26

now i replace the +37 power with 37 crit rating points (let us assume that i have already 300 crit-rating so let's take the average crit gain from 300-350 http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/ )

that would translate into +0.0278% per point -> +1.029%

no let's do the same math again but this time with 36.03% critchance and 1100 base damage:

1100+(1100x 0.3603x 1.75)= 1793

so in that simplified scenario my dps would increase from 1788 to 1793 when taking crit rating instead of power.

Gruddy's Avatar


Gruddy
07.12.2012 , 10:02 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by NoxIrradiata View Post
Thanks for derailing my thread and turning it into yet another Strength vs. Power argument.
I think you've done a good thing here by promoting discussion!
May your pants never falter, even when they're optional.

Gruddy's Avatar


Gruddy
07.12.2012 , 10:18 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
Yes, but no one is arguing against the premise that Power has higher bonus damage than Strength. The point, though, is that the added crit chance increases your DPS by more than the additional bonus damage, as is mathematically demonstrable.
I don't discount your point in that Strength increases critical chance, that is an obvious point (I hope) that no one disagrees with (myself included). However, it has been described to me that 50% critical chance is the cap for critical chance, whereby obtaining anymore would be a pointless endeavor on my part and a misappropriation of stat weights. Operating under this assumption as being true, a marauder's particular spec influences their choices in the requisite mods and enhancements.

In other words, concerning the variances in specs, as being Anni spec, my melee critical chance goal is 30% raid buffed. So the net return on critical chance diminishes for my particular spec after 30%, whereby making strength augments less valuable to my overall performance than power augments.

Assuming all things being equal, if my melee critical chance is 30%, with the Malice talent from the rage tree, my force critical chance is then 36%. I then add the Juyo Form modifier of 15% (from 5 stacks of Juyo Form) to reach 51% critical chance with my bleed effects. Considering then that 40% of Anni damage comes from bleeds, I have reached the critical chance threshold on which my Anni spec will allow without diminishing returns, and therefore misappropriating stat weights.

If I were say Carnage or Rage spec, I would have to change my stat weights and thus be inclined to subscribe to the linear logic of Critical chance increases my damage.

TL : DR

Strength not only increases bonus damage, but also critical strike chance - something we all (should) know. However, when considering which spec you are running with, valuing crit over bonus damage would be negligent on the part of the player.
May your pants never falter, even when they're optional.

Gruddy's Avatar


Gruddy
07.12.2012 , 10:28 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Pestulan View Post
The Main stat = .2 (.21 w/ Sorc/Sage buff) damage and Power = .23 damage has been pretty well hashed out (918 x .23 = 211.14). A higher number is worse, so rounding down to 4 is inflating the benefit of Power fairly significantly.
The values are actually one in the same. The .2 versus .23 is attaching a % value, whereby stating that 20% of Strength and 23% of Power equals bonus damage and nothing more.

My equation breaks it down via a ratio, whereby stating (very simply) that, "For every 5 points of Strength, I gain 1 point of bonus damage" and "For every 4 points of Power, I gain 1 point of bonus damage."

Granted, I rounded my numbers for the sake of simplicity, yet the math still shows the actual value of 4.99 for Strength and 4.35 for Power - I didn't neglect the numbers, I presented both. Again, as aforementioned earlier, I rounded up and down for the sake of simplicity, it doesn't degrade the value of the conclusions in doing so.

Simply put, 20% (or 1/5) of ones main stat equals bonus damage, which is the same as what my ratio equation (5:1) states. Moreover, i could make the addendum to the (4:1) Power ratio for the sake of accuracy in saying its a (4.35:1) ratio, but it just looked more aesthetically pleasing with a nice, round number.

In other words, both are correct, it's just 2 different ways of looking at the same thing.
May your pants never falter, even when they're optional.

Pestulan's Avatar


Pestulan
07.12.2012 , 11:45 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Gruddy View Post
Simply put, 20% (or 1/5) of ones main stat equals bonus damage, which is the same as what my ratio equation (5:1) states. Moreover, i could make the addendum to the (4:1) Power ratio for the sake of accuracy in saying its a (4.35:1) ratio, but it just looked more aesthetically pleasing with a nice, round number.

In other words, both are correct, it's just 2 different ways of looking at the same thing.
Not really. Because your numbers inflate the difference between Str and Power. Using .21 and .23, you see that Power has 10% more bonus damage than Str. Using 5:1 and 4:1 implies that Power is 20% better.