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Voidstar 0-0 draws must be sorted now

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Voidstar 0-0 draws must be sorted now
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kitsinni's Avatar


kitsinni
07.09.2012 , 10:44 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
I could agree w/ this, but we both know that will never fly in this community. : P

I mean, these are the same people who get free Recruit gear and then complain that BW didn't give them free Augment slots to go w/ it, after all.
I agree with that it would never fly around here lol.

I'm just waiting for someone to give me a good argument why they should enter a rated PvP WZ with only one objective, fail to do that single objective and leave with anything but a loss.
Okin

islander's Avatar


islander
07.09.2012 , 10:44 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Varicite View Post
Yeah, that's not the point of the thread at all.

If NOBODY can get a single door, then NOBODY deserves to win. That's the point.

And that's not what's currently happening; currently, a random team WINS even though they couldn't get a single door open, forcing the other team to "lose" even though it was in all senses a Draw.

Should just be a Draw, and both teams should gain 0 Rating, imo. But like someone else said, this does have the potential to be exploited by teams who are afraid to lose Rating against one another.
These things (Results) tend to balance themsleves out over time, though.
I'd still argue you can't complain about losing rating when you can't blow open a single door in 7 minutes.
Gėllies Erimosi, Imperial Deadeye
<Hex> Prophecy of the Five

Mayeh's Avatar


Mayeh
07.09.2012 , 10:49 AM | #33
They should go to penalty kicks to decide the winner.

Underpowered's Avatar


Underpowered
07.09.2012 , 10:52 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by kitsinni View Post
You can just reverse that situation and say you ran it in 2 minutes didin't defend at all and the other team took 2.5 minutes and you won without defending in anyway.
I agree completely. Your scenario is valid. Just like mine is - like you said, its merely a reversal. So again, I ask you - if your scenario is valid and means that superior offense plays a hand in who wins Voidstar, why doesn't superior defense play a hand?

Quote:
This is where you are completely wrong and are basically asking for a reward for complete and total failure.
I never asked for a reward in any of my posts. You need to learn to read. Go ahead, reread my posts again.

I'm asking for a DRAW in a 0-0. No rewards given, no change in win/loss ratio. Both teams had the same failures and accomplishments in a 0-0 voidstar draw - the "reward" should reflect that. Not the completely random winner as it is now in a 0-0 Voidstar, which you and I can both agree is absurd.

Quote:
Planting is the ONLY THING that makes any difference towards winning. Defending has NOTHING to do with you getting to the datacore, it just stops the other team from achieving an objective.
Defending has everything to do with you getting to the datacore. The OTHER TEAM is defending. Defending can decide outcomes in Voidstar. What part of this do you not understand?

Quote:
Defense is only a factor in Voidstar if you achieve an objective. Once you have placed a bomb defending is extremely important as time factors in, if you don't plant the bomb it makes NO DIFFERENCE you failed each and every single objective to this.
On the contrary, defense is your only hope if you did not successfully get past the first door while attacking. I can imagine a scenario where you have two identical teams with the "correct" composition and have really strong offense that is easily capable of breaching the first door most of the time, but both failed to get past the first door because of superior defensive play by both teams.

Quote:
Simply put if defending the place is an objective do you show that an objective was completed when you stop the other team from planting?
You get objective points as I said before. Was that not plain enough for you?

If you're referring to the score points on the leaderboard at the end of Voidstar, the reason why you don't get "points" for blocking the enemy from accomplishing objectives is because it would not change the final outcome of the match. The only thing it would do is inflate the numbers higher and cause more confusion. Let me explain.

Right now, if Team A makes it to the datacore and Team B only makes it past the bridge, then the score is 6-2. If we were to award points for defending, then Team A would get an extra 4 points and Team B would get zero. The score is now 10-2. There is no change in who won, the only thing that is different is that the score is inflated. This is why defense doesn't get a score point like offense does - it's pointless for purely mathematical reasons. NOT because defense shouldn't count towards anything like you claim it does.


Quote:
When it comes down to it if you want to compete as a ranked team get a team with a strategy and makeup that can at least plant a bomb or you deserve the loss to your record.
I agree completely, if you want to make a competitive ranked team then you need to have a composition and strategy that maximizes your chances of planting the bomb. But does that mean you should ignore a composition and strategy that maximizes your chances of defending? Does that mean you should not try to prevent the enemy from planting a single bomb? Of course not, that's just pure idiocy.
Dany - "Buy one DPS sage, get a mediocre healer free!"
---
jedi covenant, formerly from canderous ordo, formely from juyo server

Underpowered's Avatar


Underpowered
07.09.2012 , 10:58 AM | #35
I would like to make an amendment to my earlier post. I'm not going to edit it because then people will complain im ninja-editing to make my arguments more valid.

If it's a 0-0 draw in Voidstar, it should either be a draw for both teams, OR another system is put in place to break the tie, like in Huttball. Could be an extra round of Voidstar, or using medal counts as a tiebreaker, etc.
Dany - "Buy one DPS sage, get a mediocre healer free!"
---
jedi covenant, formerly from canderous ordo, formely from juyo server

kitsinni's Avatar


kitsinni
07.09.2012 , 11:30 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Underpowered View Post
I agree completely. Your scenario is valid. Just like mine is - like you said, its merely a reversal. So again, I ask you - if your scenario is valid and means that superior offense plays a hand in who wins Voidstar, why doesn't superior defense play a hand?.
Defense does come in to play, but only when you have achieved at least one objective.


Quote: Originally Posted by Underpowered View Post
I never asked for a reward in any of my posts. You need to learn to read. Go ahead, reread my posts again.

I'm asking for a DRAW in a 0-0. No rewards given, no change in win/loss ratio. Both teams had the same failures and accomplishments in a 0-0 voidstar draw - the "reward" should reflect that. Not the completely random winner as it is now in a 0-0 Voidstar, which you and I can both agree is absurd.
I am against the random player winning, but I also am of the opinion that anything other than a loss when you didn't do a single objective is a reward

Quote: Originally Posted by Underpowered View Post
Defending has everything to do with you getting to the datacore. The OTHER TEAM is defending. Defending can decide outcomes in Voidstar. What part of this do you not understand?
Yes and your one and only goal in Voidstar is to overcome the defense and plant a bomb, you do this or fail. The other team is doing their job by defending, but unless they also plant a bomb their defense makes no difference towards accomplishing the objective of the WZ. No one is saying defending doesn't have a place in Voidstar, I am saying it isn't an objective.

Quote: Originally Posted by Underpowered View Post
On the contrary, defense is your only hope if you did not successfully get past the first door while attacking. I can imagine a scenario where you have two identical teams with the "correct" composition and have really strong offense that is easily capable of breaching the first door most of the time, but both failed to get past the first door because of superior defensive play by both teams.
Once you have failed all of your objectives in this WZ defense is your only hope at what? Having both of you fail at the objectives? What you are describing is two teams that failed to have a team makeup and strategy for Voidstar. IMO the second team should fight to plant a bomb so they don't lose points and the original team should lose some no matter what the outcome of the second team.

Quote: Originally Posted by Underpowered View Post
You get objective points as I said before. Was that not plain enough for you?
So you are saying if you stop the other team from planting your "score" goes to 1-0 because you accomplished an objective of defending? If not you didn't get an objective point you might have got defender points that relate to medals but nothing relating to objectives

Quote: Originally Posted by Underpowered View Post
If you're referring to the score points on the leader board at the end of Voidstar, the reason why you don't get "points" for blocking the enemy from accomplishing objectives is because it would not change the final outcome of the match. The only thing it would do is inflate the numbers higher and cause more confusion. Let me explain.

Right now, if Team A makes it to the datacore and Team B only makes it past the bridge, then the score is 6-2. If we were to award points for defending, then Team A would get an extra 4 points and Team B would get zero. The score is now 10-2. There is no change in who won, the only thing that is different is that the score is inflated. This is why defense doesn't get a score point like offense does - it's pointless for purely mathematical reasons. NOT because defense shouldn't count towards anything like you claim it does.
The game may say 6-2 at the end, but if it was a score it would be displayed on the screen like in every other single warzone. If it was really ending with a score of 0-0 then there would be a scoreboard like in huttball where it says 0-0. That is nothing more than a display to show how many objectives you did, not a score.

Simply put you already said it, calling defending a success would not change the winner because the only objective in this match that matters is getting to the datacore or as close as you can to it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Underpowered View Post
I agree completely, if you want to make a competitive ranked team then you need to have a composition and strategy that maximizes your chances of planting the bomb. But does that mean you should ignore a composition and strategy that maximizes your chances of defending? Does that mean you should not try to prevent the enemy from planting a single bomb? Of course not, that's just pure idiocy.
No, you should have a strategy that allows you to both plant bombs and defend them from planting them as quickly as you did. If your team is stacked on the defense to the point that you plant no bombs then you deserve a loss as your team was made poorly for the warzone you were in. That is the entire point of rated PvP that the teams that have the right makeup and strategy and perform the best win.
Okin

DCVAN's Avatar


DCVAN
07.09.2012 , 11:47 AM | #37
I don't know why bioware just doesn't count it as a draw. They use the ELO system for ratings and that system is perfectly capable of handling draws. In the ELO system, a draw is considered a half-win half-loss. So if a high ranked team draws against a low ranked team, the high rank team is still going to lose some points and the low ranked team will gain some. I guess I could see how this might cause problems because lower ranked teams could just turtle for points. Then again, the higher ranked team should be able to overcome that because they are supposedly the better team.

So before you go asking bioware for draws, remember that you can still losing rating in a draw. That's just how the ELO system works.
Fouronethree - Level 55 Operative - The Harbinger
Kruz - Level 55 Sage - The Bastion

Underpowered's Avatar


Underpowered
07.09.2012 , 12:08 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by kitsinni View Post
Defense does come in to play, but only when you have achieved at least one objective.
So what "comes into play" for the first team defending? They haven't achieved any objective yet solely because they're randomly picked to defend first.


Quote:
Yes and your one and only goal in Voidstar is to overcome the defense and plant a bomb, you do this or fail. The other team is doing their job by defending, but unless they also plant a bomb their defense makes no difference towards accomplishing the objective of the WZ. No one is saying defending doesn't have a place in Voidstar, I am saying it isn't an objective.
The ultimate objective in Voidstar is TO WIN. Which is directly determined by how well you can both attack and defend. Saying that "your one and only goal in Voidstar is to overcome the defense and plant a bomb" would imply that if you reach the datacore you should auto win. Which clearly makes no sense.


Quote:
Once you have failed all of your objectives in this WZ defense is your only hope at what? Having both of you fail at the objectives? What you are describing is two teams that failed to have a team makeup and strategy for Voidstar. IMO the second team should fight to plant a bomb so they don't lose points and the original team should lose some no matter what the outcome of the second team.
If you have failed to plant a single bomb in your one chance to attack, then your only hope at pulling out a draw score (which is the best outcome for you in this scenario) is through defending.

Your argument stems from the fact that you consider planting bombs the only objective in Voidstar. I consider both planting and preventing plants to be objectives in Voidstar. Therefore we can never agree on many points of our arguments.

Quote:
So you are saying if you stop the other team from planting your "score" goes to 1-0 because you accomplished an objective of defending? If not you didn't get an objective point you might have got defender points that relate to medals but nothing relating to objectives
I addressed this in my Voidstar score explanation. But I'll explain it again briefly. No the score does not become 1-0 because I accomplished an objective of defending. But I stopped it from becoming 0-1, which IS an objective because if the score becomes 0-1 then I lose if I did not blow open any doors during my attack phase. NOT LOSING is an objective.

Quote:
The game may say 6-2 at the end, but if it was a score it would be displayed on the screen like in every other single warzone. If it was really ending with a score of 0-0 then there would be a scoreboard like in huttball where it says 0-0. That is nothing more than a display to show how many objectives you did, not a score.
It is not displayed on the screen because

1. There is a huge freaking map that takes up entire right hand corner of your screen
2. It is blatantly obvious what the score is (you know how far the other team got, and that's exactly how far you need to beat in order to win)
3. The map already indicates half of the score (YOUR score) through the green/red/grey door indicators.

It is a score because it represents exactly who wins and who loses. Just because there isnt a scoreboard doesnt mean a score doesn't exist. I ask you - if it is not a score, then is there a case where Team A has 6 points and Team B has 2, and Team B wins? Of course not. The 6-2 is the score, affected by objective achievements, that indicates who wins. Just like in any other Warzone. It is the measure of which team wins, unless there is a tie. In which case whoever reached the final door first wins. Or if 0-0, it is currently random which you and I agree is bad.

Quote:
No, you should have a strategy that allows you to both plant bombs and defend them from planting them as quickly as you did. If your team is stacked on the defense to the point that you plant no bombs then you deserve a loss as your team was made poorly for the warzone you were in. That is the entire point of rated PvP that the teams that have the right makeup and strategy and perform the best win.
You don't have to be stacked on defense to completely shut out the enemy from planting on a single door. My team plants bombs and shuts out other teams at the same time. Maybe you can't form a RWZ team that can do that, but I can, and I do it all the time.

On the flip side however, we have been shut out of planting bombs by other equally good rated teams and drew 0-0. It wasn't because offensive composition was bad or our offensive strategies weren't sound. It's because both teams had equally good defense. Most people seem to think that having the middle wall in the first room in Voidstar automatically means that the best offense should overcome the best defense and that teams should be penalized if they can't (namely, you). I'm telling you that it is still very possible to have perfect defense that overcomes perfect offense. You just haven't seen it yet, clearly. And I believe that neither team should be punished for excellent play.

Anyway, I'm going to stop arguing with you here. Clearly we disagree on fundamental points and neither of us are going to budge. I certainly wont; I firmly believe I'm right. So let's just agree to disagree. I will not be replying any further to this thread. Goodbye.
Dany - "Buy one DPS sage, get a mediocre healer free!"
---
jedi covenant, formerly from canderous ordo, formely from juyo server

kitsinni's Avatar


kitsinni
07.09.2012 , 12:19 PM | #39
Basically I would agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

I guess if you feel like not planting a single bomb but stopping the other team from doing so equals some type of draw or victory then feel free to think that way. The way I look at it is that you have two teams which both completely failed to understand the point of Voidstar.

To make it simple BW thinks that doing this is worth just as much chance of a loss as a win.
Okin

Xerain's Avatar


Xerain
07.09.2012 , 12:24 PM | #40
The team that has the majority of the highest damage, healing, protection, kills, objectives should win? Best thing I can really think of.

Or

The warzone should keep a tally of how many times a person entered the respawn box and whoever has the lowest number at the end of the game wins.