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Extreme Prototype: AP/Pyro Hybrid

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Extreme Prototype: AP/Pyro Hybrid

dijskykiller's Avatar


dijskykiller
07.11.2012 , 03:58 PM | #21
I don't know but in my experience playing ap spec I only use pft when multiple enemies are around which is actually a dps gain. My norse spec is better in overall dps than most pyros in my server because of the pft setup and timing. If we are talking about single target it will be pyro hands down. But in pvp aoe is useful everytime. The only time it's gonna be a dps loss is when u get stunned, you settle for it to just hit 1 enemy or its activation was too slow. So RS-PPA procs for single focus then you have PFT when you see a whole pack. 25% from CG is a waiting game and you can still crit often without it that makes the 1 point more useful elsewhere.
Jar'la Cabur
POWERTECH
POT5 - Sef's Shield Tech PvP Tanking Guide

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
07.11.2012 , 04:47 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by dijskykiller View Post
I don't know but in my experience playing ap spec I only use pft when multiple enemies are around which is actually a dps gain. My norse spec is better in overall dps than most pyros in my server because of the pft setup and timing. If we are talking about single target it will be pyro hands down. But in pvp aoe is useful everytime. The only time it's gonna be a dps loss is when u get stunned, you settle for it to just hit 1 enemy or its activation was too slow. So RS-PPA procs for single focus then you have PFT when you see a whole pack. 25% from CG is a waiting game and you can still crit often without it that makes the 1 point more useful elsewhere.
That's a pretty good assessment of the differences. I play Norse knowing I will do less damage, simply for the damage reduction talents. You are correct that PFT is a huge dps improvement when used on groups. However unless you are overriding an Immolate PFT is still better than FB or RP.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

Rischardo's Avatar


Rischardo
07.11.2012 , 05:32 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
It's in the AP guide: Here was my breakdown

I was simply stating where all the PT dps was at currently using your stats as a basis and maximum rotation, uptime, and heat management.

Pyro - depending on spec - 1650-1708 dps
Tibetan Candle - 1630-1670
Max AP - 1616-1646
Maverick - 1573
Norse with RB - 1550
Norse without RB - 1515.

So they are all well within 10 percent of each other. I don't see a reason why you couldn't use every single one of the builds and be competitive in terms of pve dps. Remember these dps numbers are spreadsheet calculations, and don't take into account movement times, stuns, avoiding damage spots and other things that can cause your dps to drop.
I think we're talking a little bit past each other. I'd say that the Extreme Prototype (I will personally call it the Bushwhacker!) build is PvP only, seeing how H/O is not nearly as useful in a PvE environment. To use this build in a PvE environment, it would probably be best to take the point out of H/O and put it into charged gauntlets, esp since it's so much easier to keep RB up on your target. Once you do that, there's only a two talent point difference and I agree that the spec doesn't really do anything new in PvE that hasn't been done before.

For PvP, I'd say that the simple act of changing 3 pts is a game changer. Having access to both strong AOE and reasonably strong single target burst is useful in so many different situations. This spec has caused me to rethink PvP in a lot of ways and has led me to enjoy PvPing again.

dijskykiller's Avatar


dijskykiller
07.11.2012 , 05:39 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Rischardo View Post
I'd say that the Extreme Prototype (I will personally call it the Bushwhacker!) build is PvP only, seeing how H/O is not nearly as useful in a PvE environment.
That does not sound good to me. Bushwhacker, really?
Jar'la Cabur
POWERTECH
POT5 - Sef's Shield Tech PvP Tanking Guide

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
07.11.2012 , 05:40 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Rischardo View Post
I think we're talking a little bit past each other. I'd say that the Extreme Prototype (I will personally call it the Bushwhacker!) build is PvP only, seeing how H/O is not nearly as useful in a PvE environment. To use this build in a PvE environment, it would probably be best to take the point out of H/O and put it into charged gauntlets, esp since it's so much easier to keep RB up on your target. Once you do that, there's only a two talent point difference and I agree that the spec doesn't really do anything new in PvE that hasn't been done before.

For PvP, I'd say that the simple act of changing 3 pts is a game changer. Having access to both strong AOE and reasonably strong single target burst is useful in so many different situations. This spec has caused me to rethink PvP in a lot of ways and has led me to enjoy PvPing again.
My post was in reference to Dardack asking about the breakdown of spreadsheet dps. Neither the Maverick (Bushwacker, Terminal Velocity) or Norse are designed for PVE purposes. I did not mean to include pve into the conversation I was replying to a question about dps output.

And HO has it's places in pve as well. I use it often enough to break cc's and ignore knockbacks. I wonder if it would work on the boss fights in EV. I know it works on the pvp one.

Finally, I am not trying to rain on your parade, but all three posts and the original designer of the build all used HO (it is the key reason for the trip into Tactics). The links are broken. Read the threads by Agooz and Exphyrl, they both stated that HO is the key and CTG this left them with 2 points either for PFT (which they chose not to take) or 1 point in ctc. The links to the builds in the old threads are broken because Torhead did some funky changing of the trees and it has broken every link to show incomplete builds. This is the reason I stated, you cannot rename a build that's already been named.

The only difference between your build and the others is PFT vs CGC and 1 point in the improved Railshot damage. PFT while nice is not gamebreaking enough to completely rename a build that has a 2 point difference. In Exphyrl's, he actually took 1 point in pft. and so did Agooz once 1.2 launched.

Look, I wholeheartedly think you brought a good discussion to the table about the value of PFT over CGC, but the build is the same. I love new thoughts, but this is the 4th forum thread in the last two months showing "new" builds that is your exact build with 1 or 2 points in different locations. Keep the discussion on going as Agooz and Exphyrl have moved on for the most part.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

dijskykiller's Avatar


dijskykiller
07.11.2012 , 06:12 PM | #26
I understand what you're trying to say Opf. I just can't consider those builds the same without PFT since FT is not worth using in those builds. Those builds focuses more on pyro's damage + ap's utility only, while extreme prototype focuses on pyro's damage + ap's damage + ap's utility. If I put those 2 points in minor talents I won't consider it different, but PFT is big for me. I know, it's just 2 points, that's why I named it based on those 2 prototype talents.
Jar'la Cabur
POWERTECH
POT5 - Sef's Shield Tech PvP Tanking Guide

Rischardo's Avatar


Rischardo
07.11.2012 , 06:37 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by dijskykiller View Post
That does not sound good to me. Bushwhacker, really?
Oh well, to each his own. I never thought that Carolina Parakeet sounded "good", but it was a name the PT/Vanguard community grew to love. I was just trying to come up with a silly name that was still relevant to the build's philosophy (I have an explanation a few posts above if you missed it).

Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
Finally, I am not trying to rain on your parade, but all three posts and the original designer of the build all used HO (it is the key reason for the trip into Tactics). The links are broken. Read the threads by Agooz and Exphyrl, they both stated that HO is the key and CTG this left them with 2 points either for PFT (which they chose not to take) or 1 point in ctc. The links to the builds in the old threads are broken because Torhead did some funky changing of the trees and it has broken every link to show incomplete builds. This is the reason I stated, you cannot rename a build that's already been named.

The only difference between your build and the others is PFT vs CGC and 1 point in the improved Railshot damage. PFT while nice is not gamebreaking enough to completely rename a build that has a 2 point difference. In Exphyrl's, he actually took 1 point in pft. and so did Agooz once 1.2 launched.

Look, I wholeheartedly think you brought a good discussion to the table about the value of PFT over CGC, but the build is the same. I love new thoughts, but this is the 4th forum thread in the last two months showing "new" builds that is your exact build with 1 or 2 points in different locations. Keep the discussion on going as Agooz and Exphyrl have moved on for the most part.
No hard feelings man. You said "The Maverick" was the first name? Well then, I'll just refer to it as the Maverick Bushwhacker then (everyone else can call it the Extreme Maverick Prototype haha *edit* actually, EMP would be a great name too. EMPs are real world AOEs that shut things down, just like this build does).

But in all seriousness, let's keep the discussion going. Particularly, I'm interested in how this build (or any of the AP/Pyro hybrids really) should gear themselves. We've already talked a little bit about set bonuses, but not much about the stats we should be going after.

Endurance vs. Offensive Stats

Spoiler


Crit vs. Aim vs. Power: which stat to stack?
Spoiler


Anyways, I'd be interested to know what you guys think, especially since I just finished rounding out my DPS PvP set (*shakes first* at the BM Supercommando Implants and War Hero Supercommando Helm rotting away in my bank).

dijskykiller's Avatar


dijskykiller
07.11.2012 , 07:04 PM | #28
Basic DPS gearing for powertech DPS with Power>Aim augments since you didn't pick up steely resolve. Set bonus would be preferential for me but I think the eliminator set bonus is better though I use combat tech myself.
Jar'la Cabur
POWERTECH
POT5 - Sef's Shield Tech PvP Tanking Guide

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
07.12.2012 , 10:10 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by dijskykiller View Post
I understand what you're trying to say Opf. I just can't consider those builds the same without PFT since FT is not worth using in those builds. Those builds focuses more on pyro's damage + ap's utility only, while extreme prototype focuses on pyro's damage + ap's damage + ap's utility. If I put those 2 points in minor talents I won't consider it different, but PFT is big for me. I know, it's just 2 points, that's why I named it based on those 2 prototype talents.
FT is always worth using regardless of spec if there are more than 2 people in one location. Outside of Death from above it's amazing. Every PT should use it on doors and cluster areas when they can. Even Pyro's use it to hit multiple targets.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
07.12.2012 , 10:12 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Rischardo View Post
Endurance vs. Offensive Stats

Spoiler


Crit vs. Aim vs. Power: which stat to stack?
Spoiler


Anyways, I'd be interested to know what you guys think, especially since I just finished rounding out my DPS PvP set (*shakes first* at the BM Supercommando Implants and War Hero Supercommando Helm rotting away in my bank).
I would recommend 2 pc Eliminator + 2pc Super Commando for the 3 seconds extra shield. Trust me when I say this. It's the single best combo out there. 3 seconds of shield makes you feel like you can live through anything. You lose a bit of damage on rail shot, but you gain 3 seconds of 25 percent damage reduction.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)