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STAR WARS and bad writers...


Darth_Eminok's Avatar


Darth_Eminok
07.09.2012 , 12:02 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh View Post

Star Wars is not a setting for deep philosophy. It was intended to be campy pulp action in the style of the old movie serials. It is only "artists" (and I use the term loosely here) who insist that it has to be darkened up, made more ambiguous, and who try to make it more thought provoking by adding shades of gray everywhere. The problem with doing that, of course, is that it isn't supposed to be dark, ambiguous, and thought provoking.

It is like... Getting spicy chicken when you ordered original recipe. It isn't a bad thing, it can taste good, but it isn't what you ordered and it doesn't taste like it is supposed to.

It is a tale of high adventure. Space wizards and space cowboys.

The Light Side is good the Dark Side is bad. The gray areas are superficial at best and even when the villains win there is always an undertone of hope. That is what Star Wars is supposed to be.

NJO tried to change that and, in my opinion, wounded the IP greatly. The crap with Vergere was unforgivable. The "Anyone can die!" theme of the NJO was out of place.

Basically... The entire Star Wars: New Jedi Order series was out of place. It just didn't feel like Star Wars. It was a radical departure from the themes of the universe.

Was it good? On its own? Possibly. I wouldn't have disliked it much if it wasn't Star Wars. It, however, was terrible for a Star Wars series.

I am not alone, or even close to alone, in my views on the NJO. It was the most controversial Star Wars series. A lot of Star Wars fans hated it. So much so that much of the last three series worked to retcon events and interpretations presented to us in the NJO books.

It didn't help either that the writers couldn't keep the storylines coherent and kept dropping sub plots left and right.
Quite the sophisticated one. Your words have me sided with you.
<---LEGION OF SHADOWS--->
"Your future lies with us."
http://legionofshadowsguild.enjin.com/home

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
07.09.2012 , 12:05 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Eminok View Post
Quite the sophisticated one. Your words have me sided with you.
His superpower is words.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

AlyxDinas's Avatar


AlyxDinas
07.09.2012 , 12:14 PM | #43
Walsh is, if nothing else, eloquent. Largely though, I hope you're more swayed by his comments about the New Jedi Order than, say, accusations of unfalsifiable conspiracy. Because, and this might shock him for me to say so, I readily admit that the NJO was a departure from the norm and not perfect. Whether or not you find it a successful experiment rests, somewhat, in what you feel the IP should strive for. And upon this, there tends to be a split among fans.

There's nothing particularly wrong in stressing the setting's duality. I understand why it has such appeal. It's actually brought some of its best stories. However, sometimes it also has the issue of providing remarkably....disconcerting moral notions that seem counter to the mythos' core. "Forgiveness is for those who deserve it." being a stellar example of the degeneration of Luke's character in modern writings. The largely unattempted redemption of Jacen's Solo alongside the Denning's wholesale violence. The very unfortunate political and moral assertions of the Jedi Order in FOTJ.

Compare this stress on stark dichotomies and "for or against" mindsets to, say, even something like TOTJ. Anderson's a pretty lackluster writer and TOTJ was, by and large, some of the pulpiest pulp this IP has ever found, yet even for all of its cheese and simplicity, it retained a larger thematic connection to the films than any of the Del Rey book series within the last 5-6 years (with particular stress on Fate of the Jedi). For what can be said about the superficial grimness of NJO's setting, thematically it was startlingly idealistic and hopeful. Major series that have followed it have generally abandoned idealism for a cold, ruthless pragmatism from everyone. Especially our heroes. Which is funny because the Order's tragic flaw in the prequels was rigidity. The odd assertions of Apocalypse that cosmic balance essentially relies on eternal war between Jedi and Sith might be the most crystallized and pure distillation of this. It doesn't help either that the writers can't keep the storylines coherent and kept dropping sub plots left and right. (Wait..)

This is an example of what I meant before in saying that embracing the IP's pulp nature can sometimes make the stories seem more sincere. As the modern age of Star Wars has set in, we've retained a lot of the loose trapping of pulp with none of the previous sincerity. With the Dark Horse productions being just about the last bastion.
'Jeos Dinas'-Ebon Hawk
Manager, The Ebon Hawk Bounty Board
"Perception Problem."

Darth_Dae's Avatar


Darth_Dae
07.09.2012 , 02:19 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Compared to some comic book characters who have lived since forever? Some of them being actual gods, living for a couple thousand years isn't all that great. (Which whose idea was it to take gods and make them superheroes? I feel that always downgraded the status of them.)
Ok so give me examples, keeping in context of Star Wars of course, of living for a couple thousand years because this information has seemed to have passed me.

And I never said anything wrong with becoming something spectacular beyond death, that is the way of the force for many but I do not define them as Gods. More like strong presences in the force, now that I have no problem but what you're saying here is thousands of years of life before death. So who are you talking about?
Looking in Alderaan places

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
07.09.2012 , 02:55 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by AlyxDinas View Post
Because I would like to continue discussing the topic's actual purpose:

Star Wars has never particularly benefited from an overabundance of subtlety, except perhaps in terms of philosophical content and even that is relatively rare within its catalog of work. This is largely because the IP finds the majority of its roots in the trite, pulp science fiction and adventure film serials of the 1950s and even earlier. Star Wars has never been subtle and by and large has never been host to writers who wield immensely technical or narrative craftsmanship. Although, admittedly, there are a handful of true exceptions to this.

However, by and large, it might be said that Star Wars retains a lot of it staying power because of this. The honest embracing of its pulp nature shouldn't necessarily be to its detriment (although it sometimes can lead to certain problems). Often, though, acknowledging the straight out blemishes allows the underlying themes the IP expresses to seem, if possible, more compelling at times. Or at least, more sincere.

In regards to the discussion about Vergere, I would merely like to add that...



This never happens.
While I do agree with Walsh on some things, he is wrong on others. His point of view is heavily biased towards the Jedi. Imo, he still needs to work on his people skills a bit.
. OPOD
The New Jedi Code: "Keep Calm & Carry a Lightsaber"

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
07.09.2012 , 02:56 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dae View Post
Ok so give me examples, keeping in context of Star Wars of course, of living for a couple thousand years because this information has seemed to have passed me.

And I never said anything wrong with becoming something spectacular beyond death, that is the way of the force for many but I do not define them as Gods. More like strong presences in the force, now that I have no problem but what you're saying here is thousands of years of life before death. So who are you talking about?
Cad Bane and Tenebrae/Vitiate/Sith Emperor come to mind right off the top of my head.
. OPOD
The New Jedi Code: "Keep Calm & Carry a Lightsaber"

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
07.09.2012 , 03:16 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
Tenebrae/Vitiate/Sith Emperor come to mind right off the top of my head.
^Those guys, theres more I am sure but can't name them off the top of my head.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Kharnis's Avatar


Kharnis
07.09.2012 , 04:06 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
Cad Bane
Pardon? He isn't over a thousand years old.
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Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
07.09.2012 , 04:09 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Kharnis View Post
Pardon? He isn't over a thousand years old.
I'll let Wolf handle this one, since he's more of a Cad Bane fan than I am.
. OPOD
The New Jedi Code: "Keep Calm & Carry a Lightsaber"

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
07.09.2012 , 04:17 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
I'll let Wolf handle this one, since he's more of a Cad Bane fan than I am.
Huh? Lol where'd you hear this?
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.