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So Mace never won the duel?...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
So Mace never won the duel?...

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
07.05.2012 , 11:14 PM | #1
So lookin around comicvine, I come across this article stating that Mace lost the duel entirely so heres what it says.


One misconception I feel I should address is Lucas' remarks on the fight during the Revenge of the Sith commentary.
"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--Taken from the Revenge of the Sith commentary

If you fail to pay attention to context, this sounds like Lucas said that Mace in fact did defeat Palpatine. However, you need to notice the comment as a whole. Lucas starts off by offering a description on a certain scene, but then he moves on to tell how he fitted details in with one another. But this is the distinction: He describes a sequence of events as the viewer sees them at first, giving a brief background on what sequence in particular he is talking about, but then his focus shifts from what the audience sees to what the characters' intentions are and what they experience and think. So from the context of simply a perceivable sequence, no, this does not constitute proof that Lucas stated that Mace did really defeat Palpatine.
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Edit: Also the duel.

Next point: Mace only fought as a perfect equal with Palpatine. The novel is very clear that Mace, even when his speed and combat efficiency are so acutely aggrandized, is still only an equal with Palpatine in a duel.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Another source even bears mention that Palpatine forced Mace back.
In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed—enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

This proves that Mace is incontestably not a better duelist than Sidious regardless of what some may think.

Which leads us to the next point: If Mace isn't a more skilled duelist, how did he win? Setting aside the possibility that Palpatine allowed him to, the novel shows that Windu won by exploiting Palpatine's fear which caused him to become distracted and slow down. Mace felt fear emanating around the office, which he believed was Palpatine's, and abused it by breaking the window, resulting in Palpatine hesitating when he stood near it for fear of falling down. This allowed Mace to land a blow that disarmed him.
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So...what is right here?? I'm lost now.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

SilentKX's Avatar


SilentKX
07.06.2012 , 12:25 AM | #2
I believe the Mace did really overpower Palpatine and win the duel. Palpatine may have been a sith lord, but he was weak, obviously no match for one of the strongest jedi in the order. However, as stated above, Anakin wanted Palpatine alive so he could learn the powers to save Padame. If Anakin had not arrived when he did, Palpatine would have died. Palpatine tried to play the sympathy card and make it look like he was just a helpless old man.

Long story short, Mace Windu should have won this duel. George Lucas is just trying to confuse us.

Malrus's Avatar


Malrus
07.06.2012 , 01:00 AM | #3
Personally I believe windu won the duel (although Windu's kick just might have caught Sidious by surprise and may not show who is the better duelist)although I think sidious was acting when he said he was getting weak just to turn Anakin. I think if he really wanted to he would have burnt Windu to a crisp. My evidence is how he regains his powers so quickly after saying that he is to weak and than shouting POWER, UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!

Stncold's Avatar


Stncold
07.06.2012 , 02:06 AM | #4
Mace won, there's no doubt about it. The fight was in his favor pretty much from the start. Palpatine showed that he was good, but Mace is easily one of the best duelists of all time. Probably only surpassed by Luke and maybe Tulak Hord, if Kreia and Khem Val aren't exaggerating. I'd throw Kas'im in there too probably, he was never actually killed in combat and did some crazy stuff. Lore-wise, the Hero of Tython and the Emperor's Wrath are both starting to rank up there also.

Mace died because he toyed with SIdious and let it go on too long. Once Anakin showed up, Sidious saw an opportunity and took it.
Selthia-Guardian
Zarrec- Gunslinger Yorenec-Commando
POT5.
RIP The Fatman

Liquidacid's Avatar


Liquidacid
07.06.2012 , 02:19 AM | #5
Mace made a classic mistake that is usually made by villains... instead of just finishing the job he had to flap his gums
"bibo ergo sum" ( I drink, therefore I am)

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
07.06.2012 , 02:24 AM | #6
Lol, the author of that article isn't the fizziest drink in the fridge. Lucas' statements are clear enough: originally the scene was simply Mace overwhelming Palpatine then Anakin interfering; later, he added Palpatine's ploy of acting weaker than he was to develop the scene and frame Anakin's interference more. This is no way contradicts the original assertion of Mace overpowering Palpatine. Mace beat Palpatine, Palpatine just played it up to push Anakin over the edge.

Of course, people calling Palpatine weak are spouting BS as well. Palpatine was incredibly powerful in the force; Mace was just a slightly better duelist with a relatively unique form.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
07.06.2012 , 02:56 AM | #7
Mace: Gotcha!

Palpatine: Dang, man! I'm spent!

Mace: You under arrest, foo!

Anakin: Sup?

Mace: I got this.

Palpatine: Wonder Twins Power: Activate! UNLIMITED PWNAGE!!!!! BEYOTCH!!!!!

Mace: Nawp! I still got yo ugly butt! But seein' as how you would just get off if we arrested you, I gotta off ya.

Anakin: No way, man! We need to take him alive and put him on trial!

Mace: No can do, kiddo! Gotta pwn him now before he gets some powah back!

Anakin: *slice 'n dice and Mace's hand goes flying*

Mace: You little mutha****a!

Palpatine: MORE UNLIMITED PWNAGE!!!!!!
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

Sabaot's Avatar


Sabaot
07.06.2012 , 04:07 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Stncold View Post
Mace won, there's no doubt about it. The fight was in his favor pretty much from the start.
The way i see it is that you too fall under Sidious' manipulations. Sadly, it was Palpatine that was superior. He WAS controlling fight all the time. I'll explain why.

Let's go back a little. In the beginning there was Chaos...err.. not that much, ok? So, Darth Sidious alredy lost two of his apprentices - Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus. And he was plotting to get new one.

But there was a sliiight problem with his future apprentice. He was a Jedi and not convinced to Sith way. So he had to be convinced. Sidious was plotting that for a looooong time (some rumor that Anakin was a creation of Sidious' master - Darth Pleguis the Wise and Palpatine now continues that). Every action that involved Anakin was overlooked ant directed by Palpatine. Why he asked for OB1 help with Padme protection? Because there was Anakin and he had feellings toward Padme (of which he told Palpatine as his "mentor"). We can say that Palpatine "arranged" Padme and Anakin romance. He was luring Anakin towards Dark Side all the time.

And all concluded when Mace Windu with other 3 masters came to Chancellor's office to arrest him. Palpatine and Windu duelled. But it was Palpatine who controlled the whole fight. He was just delaying the duel just to enable Anakin to arrive. And Anakin, deep in love with Padme, terrified with his dreams of losing wife, torn between Palpatine, an old mentor and Jedi code and duty he enters chambers and see what.

Palpatine laying, "weak" and defeated. Saying that it's him who can save Anakin's love. And Anakin falls into that. He cuts Windu's arm. And pay attention - how that "defeated and weak" Palpatine acts.

Power. Unlimited... POWER!!!

It is here where Palpatine shows his full potential. Up to that point he was just an actor. performing his role of old, weak and fragile man. And everyone, literally everyone fell on that. He alone manipulated Trade Federation, Jedi Order, Jedi Grand Masters, Anakin, Senate just to achieve his own personal goal.

So what you see in film is that Palpatine allowed Windu to think he was winning and controlling the fight. You remember the SW TOR trailer when Malgus attacks Jedi Temple? You remember what he said in the very beginning?

You were deceived...
Yuki'no'Chi

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
07.06.2012 , 04:48 AM | #9
Sidious lost, the Novel has told us that, he had to reserve some of his force power to not be blown out of the window, that allowed Mace to kick him in the face and Sidious was genuinely surprised by the attack, thereafter he feigned utter defeat and helplessness, he could have killed Windu or indeed all four of them just with his lightning, as Windu's lightsaber actually bent under the pressure and it was Windu who couldn't hold on any longer, then Sidious stopped his barrage, with the intent that Anakin take out Windu himself, fulfilling one of the main requirements of a Sith, you have to kill somebody you love or are close to, to prove your allegiance to the Dark Side of the Force.

Although from Windu's point of view, he was actually quite distracted the entire time, trying to read Sidious, get inside his mind and he eventually did on the edge of that window, he felt the shatterpoint, that Sidious actually trusted and believed in Anakin to help him, what he didn't feel was the actual shatterpoint, the fear pouring off of Anakin, by the time he sensed it, he was being disarmed by Anakin.

Malrus's Avatar


Malrus
07.06.2012 , 05:20 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Sidious lost, the Novel has told us that, he had to reserve some of his force power to not be blown out of the window, that allowed Mace to kick him in the face and Sidious was genuinely surprised by the attack, thereafter he feigned utter defeat and helplessness, he could have killed Windu or indeed all four of them just with his lightning, as Windu's lightsaber actually bent under the pressure and it was Windu who couldn't hold on any longer, then Sidious stopped his barrage, with the intent that Anakin take out Windu himself, fulfilling one of the main requirements of a Sith, you have to kill somebody you love or are close to, to prove your allegiance to the Dark Side of the Force.

Although from Windu's point of view, he was actually quite distracted the entire time, trying to read Sidious, get inside his mind and he eventually did on the edge of that window, he felt the shatterpoint, that Sidious actually trusted and believed in Anakin to help him, what he didn't feel was the actual shatterpoint, the fear pouring off of Anakin, by the time he sensed it, he was being disarmed by Anakin.
So you are basically saying that Sidious was the more powerful of the two and would have defeated Windu even if Anakin didn't intervene.


p.s Does anyone else find it funny that when Windu gets one hand cut off he screams like he has a sharp pole up his arse but when Dooku has both hands cut off he doesn't say a word.