Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Lost Island observation


NoxiousAlby's Avatar


NoxiousAlby
07.02.2012 , 11:08 PM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
I don't see how choosing to delineate the community along the lines of those who raid and those who don't has any real relevance. Your argument seems to center on the idea that Lost Island is too exclusionary to the ability level of many "non-raiders" and is therefore discouraging. The way I see it, reality is far more complex than that.

Dedicated PVPers (and there's a fair few of them) are "non-raiders", but I doubt the relative difficulty of one flashpoint means anything to them. Many "non-raiders" don't even do endgame instanced content, choosing instead to level alts, craft, RP, etc. On the other side of the coin, some raiders aren't even capable of clearing LI unless they're carried. I've met more than one dedicated raider who's actually quite bad at the game, and more than a few "non-raiding casuals" who are very capable. Dividing people on the basis of whether or not they engage in 8-man (or greater) group content is just too simplistic.
I cant argue with any of the above
But there have been a number of posts on the forums from players who want to do HM LI but are really struggling, and I feel for this group of players. I hope most will persevere and succeed but worry that we will lose this group of players indefinately.

Dont get me wrong I dont judge a players ability on whether they raid or not, like you I have met players of great skill who didnt raid (but now do after convincing them to join one of our raid groups even if it's just 1 night a week) and raiders who cant grasped skill rotations or the best way to play their class. In their case the desire is there but but their comprehension is lacking and there is only so much you can do to help someone.

Quote:
The same goes for your concept of raid mechanics, since D7 has an equal (if not higher) level of mechanical challenge to the tier 1 ops. With the exception of Fabricator, everything in EV and KP is so simple it's barely more demanding than any of the tier 1 flashpoints anyway.
Again we agree (what is the world coming to)
Your right, in fact I felt that EV & KP was a great introduction to raiding even though they lacked challenge for experienced raiders. It has enabled us to introduce raiding to players who have never raided before, in fact i wish that BW had taken it a step further. I was glad for the introduction of 8 man raids and had hoped they would have introduced 4 man raiding as well for players who dont like large group dynamics. The more players who become actively involved in a game the stronger the game will be in my opinion.

Quote:
Maybe we can just agree that instead of adjusting the difficulty of LI, the loot drops should be retuned to make it more attractive and rewarding to players who don't necessarily have the benefit of being in a PVE progression-focused guild.
I would be happy with that outcome, it would at least justify for players who are struggling now the resolve to continue to finish HM LI. It would most definately reinforce their determination and that could only be a good thing

Thankyou for the chat Aurojiin

Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
07.12.2012 , 03:59 AM | #82
I want to come back on this

Quote: Originally Posted by NoxiousAlby View Post
Quote:
1. What exactly are raid mechanics, as separate from - assumably - flashpoint mechanics?
Raid mechanics
- group coordination
- patience
- time investment ( I still remember spending 6 weeks 3 nights a week on 1 boss in SSC many many years ago)
Flashpoint mechanics
- gratification/time investment of 30 - 90 min
- less group coordination required than operation bosses
- patience should never be a factor
So let's get this straight

You say that a group of 4 stranger, unable to coordinate their effort (your no group coordination argument), should be able to blast through any hardmode flashpoint (your 30 minutes time frame argument), with no danger of ever wiping (your no patience required argument) and be rewarded top raid gear (your instant gratification argument).

that's your ideal flashpoint? That is your vision of end game PVE


-------

A Flashpoint is a style of gameplay, 4-man as opposed to operation which are 8 or 16 man. Nowhere in the definition of the flashpoiint there is a notion of being easier than operation. A given flashpoint can be easier or harder than a given operation, there is nothing wrong with that.

All that is needed is that there is content for all type of players.

Easy flashpoint and operation for player not wanting to push themselve or invest much time in learning game mechanics. Typically, normal and hard mode tier 1 flaspoint, normal lost island and storymode EV/KP covert this point

Medium difficulty flaspoint and operation for player wanting some level of challenge in the game. Here you have hard mode EV/KP, hard mode LI, normal denova.

Harder difficulty content, for player really wanting to test their limit (and push them further). Hard mode Denova, and later nightmare denova is meant for them.

That is my vision of endgame PVE. At any level of difficulty the game should offer a variety of playstyle, solo, 4 man, operation. unfortunately there aren't any really hard solo and 4 man content, but there is at least a ONE mederalty challenging 4-man content, leave it be.
Shadow | Kinetic Combat

NoxiousAlby's Avatar


NoxiousAlby
07.12.2012 , 09:56 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by Vankris View Post
I want to come back on this



So let's get this straight

You say that a group of 4 stranger, unable to coordinate their effort (your no group coordination argument), should be able to blast through any hardmode flashpoint (your 30 minutes time frame argument), with no danger of ever wiping (your no patience required argument) and be rewarded top raid gear (your instant gratification argument).

that's your ideal flashpoint? That is your vision of end game PVE
Your being a little simplistic, so lets put things in perspective.
If we look at successfull MMO's in terms of subscription rates WOTLK would be amongst one of the highest subscribed games. Although the Heroic Instances were easy and provided little challenge for experienced players most were runnable in 30min or less.
If we go further back in time to vanilla wow or TBC heroic 4 mans were generally run by raiders as part of gearing your characters for entry level raids.
Over the years (7 in wow) the mentallity of end game content has changed, players that once never participated have become avid participants with the introduction of the dungeon finder. Non raiding players now expect to be able to complete flashpoints/instances as part of their end game content, it's what they are paying for. As for wiping mistakes will always be costly, over the years i've seen more wipes on trash accidently pulled or incorrectly cc'd than n boss fights. So no, I wouldnt expect any HM flashpoint to be wipe free in terms of mechanics.
Given the addition of campiagn tier set Rakata is no longer the "top raid gear", so what I am saying is that HM flashpoints should be doable within 30-45 min (unless theres a wipe) by the average player in an unfamiliar group. Even if the flashpoints drops 1 piece of redundant raid gear, the first boss only drops Columi and is without doubt more difficult than any encounter other than those in HM EC.

Ideally the perfect situation would be to leave HM LI alone and not adjust the boss mechanics, but I would have each boss drop Rakata. Why? For those of us doing it weekly we dont need the drops so they are of no significance but for players struggling it will provide incentive to keep trying. Players having difficulty need to adopt a raiding mentality when running this flashpoint, unlike other flashpoints or instances (in other games) HM LI for some players will be a work in progress and for this reason I would have the rewards provide them with the dedication to keep trying.


-------

Quote:
A Flashpoint is a style of gameplay, 4-man as opposed to operation which are 8 or 16 man. Nowhere in the definition of the flashpoiint there is a notion of being easier than operation. A given flashpoint can be easier or harder than a given operation, there is nothing wrong with that.

All that is needed is that there is content for all type of players.
Sorry but that is old school mentality
Anyone playing MMO's for the past 7+ years have seen flashpoints/instances become easier as developers realised that they became end game content for some casuals and non raiders. Blizz tried to reverse the trend in Cataclysm and we all know how successfull that was with subs bleeding to an all time low within the first 3-6 months. For players unwilling to dedicate time to a specific raiding schedule and hours each week flashpoints will always be their game of choice. Many have families and jobs, they just want to come home & do a few runs before logging off, for this reason flashpoints need to be easier than raids. As raids should provide a couple of months worth of dedication and keep players occupied between content.

Quote:
Easy flashpoint and operation for player not wanting to push themselve or invest much time in learning game mechanics. Typically, normal and hard mode tier 1 flaspoint, normal lost island and storymode EV/KP covert this point
If there is one thing I have learnt over the years is that players who dont raid never will, some players dont want to join a random 8 man experience even if they have the time. And honestly who can blame them? Posters bandy around terms like "bads" and have an intolerance towards others. We see it everyday in general chat regardless of what games you play. For this reason players who run 4 man content will only ever run 4 man content and the assumption that heroics or HM is a prerequisite to raiding is false.
Considering we have had no new T1 content since Dec 2011 I would expect many dedicated 4 man players would have tried to run the T2 flashpoints it's natural progression. Some have enjoyed it, others have become disillusioned and frustrated.

Quote:
Medium difficulty flaspoint and operation for player wanting some level of challenge in the game. Here you have hard mode EV/KP, hard mode LI, normal denova.

Harder difficulty content, for player really wanting to test their limit (and push them further). Hard mode Denova, and later nightmare denova is meant for them.

That is my vision of endgame PVE. At any level of difficulty the game should offer a variety of playstyle, solo, 4 man, operation. unfortunately there aren't any really hard solo and 4 man content, but there is at least a ONE mederalty challenging 4-man content, leave it be.
If you had bothered following my conversation you would find I supported leaving it alone, but was in favour of improving the reward to provide greater incentive to players struggling with it. Really make it worth their while comming back week after week just to try and down 1 boss at a time.

Nolenthar's Avatar


Nolenthar
07.12.2012 , 10:22 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by NoxiousAlby View Post
Sorry but that is old school mentality
Anyone playing MMO's for the past 7+ years have seen flashpoints/instances become easier as developers realised that they became end game content for some casuals and non raiders. Blizz tried to reverse the trend in Cataclysm and we all know how successfull that was with subs bleeding to an all time low within the first 3-6 months. For players unwilling to dedicate time to a specific raiding schedule and hours each week flashpoints will always be their game of choice. Many have families and jobs, they just want to come home & do a few runs before logging off, for this reason flashpoints need to be easier than raids. As raids should provide a couple of months worth of dedication and keep players occupied between content.
You do know that there are other MMOs than WoW.

What you're doing is compare everything in the MMO World to WoW, what Blizzard did, what they didn't, how the sub suffered and how they increased.
Breaking news : WoW was not successful because it was easy, or casual, or stuff like that, it was successful because they cattered to craploads of gamestyles, from casu to hardcore to casu pvpers and such.

The fact that you've seen more wipes on trash than on boss actually proves a point though : you definitely have run easy content for too long.

Easy content is fine, hard content is fine, average content is fine, however, if you don't give any of those, you'll loose subscriptions.
Making everything "heavily puggable" where having 4 players AFK won't even wipe you will not make everyone happy. That's why having 1 freaking Tier 2 flashpoint is fair enough, don't steal it from us.

And no giving Rakata to the whole place is not even remotely necessary nor it's fair. Operations need to get some incentive and the place is not hard enough to require such loot. Columi main hand and rakata chest is good enough incentive.
Kao'celaar Ildorii, Juyo Master, Mystical Awakening

NoxiousAlby's Avatar


NoxiousAlby
07.12.2012 , 10:52 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by Nolenthar View Post
You do know that there are other MMOs than WoW.

What you're doing is compare everything in the MMO World to WoW, what Blizzard did, what they didn't, how the sub suffered and how they increased.
Breaking news : WoW was not successful because it was easy, or casual, or stuff like that, it was successful because they cattered to craploads of gamestyles, from casu to hardcore to casu pvpers and such.
You dont compare apples to oranges, if you want to be comparable to the best then you compare yourself to the best. Wow never catered to all playstyles until they introduced Wotlk and even then experienced raiders will tell you it catered to the "average" player (except Ulduur) not them. Catalclysm did a 180 degree turn, and the rest is history so now welcome to the pandas to try and win the "average" player back. Wow and success was created by the community, I still remember the epic battles & invasions waged at Taren Mill & Southshore but even those days didnt last.

Quote:
The fact that you've seen more wipes on trash than on boss actually proves a point though : you definitely have run easy content for too long.
Actually it's more of a testiment to amount of goofing around and fun I have playing with the same 8 players who have all been together for about 8 years now. We play seriously when it's boss time and have fun when it's not. If I could have any ability on my BH or Sniper it would be misdirection, placing it on the healer or other dps creates alot of laughter at times. Nothing is hard in these games, did you do ICC before the buff was introduced, or BWL , MC, SSC, BT, or Sunwell when it was relevant? Attempt to belittle me all you like it's water off a ducks back.

Quote:
Easy content is fine, hard content is fine, average content is fine, however, if you don't give any of those, you'll loose subscriptions.
Making everything "heavily puggable" where having 4 players AFK won't even wipe you will not make everyone happy. That's why having 1 freaking Tier 2 flashpoint is fair enough, don't steal it from us.
I suggest you go back to reading 101, no one is trying to steal anything from you lol. I merely suggest that the rewards be improved to provide incentive to players struggling with it to keep their level of determination high. I already completed it the week it came out but am honestly sick of trying to help guildies through it who cant complete it just so they can get their damn blue speeder.

Quote:
And no giving Rakata to the whole place is not even remotely necessary nor it's fair. Operations need to get some incentive and the place is not hard enough to require such loot. Columi main hand and rakata chest is good enough incentive.
Let me guess your still in Rakata? Well i'm already Campaign/Rakata with some BH mods added and I dont care if less fortunate players get the chance to obtain 3 pieces of Rakata gear from 3 bosses. If it convinces players to stick with the game because HM LI is a sign of things to come then great, let them have 3 pieces of Rakata it doesnt make me feel threatened at all.

Also all the bosses in HM EV & KP and the first 3 bosses in SM EC are easier than HM LI and yet they drop Rakata....go figure so what exactly isnt "fair"?. This is throwing a bone to players who dont raid, to give them the incentive to keep trying.

Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
07.12.2012 , 05:34 PM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by NoxiousAlby View Post
If we look at successfull MMO's in terms of subscription rates WOTLK .
Just for argument sake, allow me to challenge that, just indulge me for a minute, i'll be brief.

Since you want to use the example of wow, which is fair, since it's a popular MMO and one might learn from it. The data are
End of vanilla - 5 millions subs
End of TBC - 11 million subs
End of Wolk - just under 12 millions subs
Currently in cataclysm - just under 10 millions subs

So you might look at data and say wolk has the highest subs, must be the most popular, the better formula, i think it's wrong.

Look at the delta, the increase in population, by the end of TBC, wow has reach 11 millions, a very high delta, with no sign of slowing down. A this point of time, no one could predict a peak at barely 1 more million. The sky was the limit, 20 millions, 30 millions why not, whose to say it was impossible.

But in WoLK, Blizzard made very dramatic change to the game. Easy heroics, done in 10-15 minutes, easy naxaramas raid, showering the player base with epic item, litteraly drowning in them. Also, a badge system that always make obsolete the previous tier once a new tier comes out, well deep, profound change in the PVE progression path.

Results, the ever increasing on subs came to a near screeching halt, stagnate and finally drop a little toward the end of WoLK.

How do you have an increase of subs?
- you get new players
- you keep the current player in game.

This is were WoLK failed. Where he keeps getting newer player (the so called wrath babies), it coudn't do what its predecessor could, retain players.

that is why i think WoLK was a semi failure and vanilla/TBC a tremendous success.

Of course, those are raw data, anyone can bring their own interpretation, by no mean i pretend to have the truth. This is just what i believe is true/


The Moral (thanks for reading me). I believe as human being, we need goals, we need objective difficult to achieve to keep us going. Making slow but tangible progress towards it, that's what keep us interested.

There is a need, even for casual, for a difficult flashpoint. Something they would say, i did it, i beat lost island. Now that's something.
Shadow | Kinetic Combat

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
07.12.2012 , 06:50 PM | #87
Just to add my voice to the pot.

I'm a new mmo player (been playing RPGs/other pc games for 25 years but never an mmo until TOR). I was drawn in as a Star Wars fan. I was convinced to try this because it was solo-friendly and I had no interest in joining a guild, doing endgame content or anything. My plan was to do the storyline quests for the 8 classes and stop.

So.

I've somehow changed into someone who likes the endgame content, HM FPs and the raid progression. I've been pugging HMFPs since 1.3 dropped and having a blast meeting new people etc, etc. etc.

I personally find HM LI very difficult and have not yet made it past the first boss.

However, I have no desire to have the difficulty adjusted in any way. I'm looking forward to getting my Columi MH when I eventually finish it. And as a Commando dps, I'll be very happy when that happens. pew pew pew

Instead, I will read strategies for fighting that boss, learn my class better, become a better player. Sooner or later I will win and feel like I accomplished something, and continue on with harder ops.

Just my $0.02.

NoxiousAlby's Avatar


NoxiousAlby
07.12.2012 , 07:03 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by Vankris View Post
Just for argument sake, allow me to challenge that, just indulge me for a minute, i'll be brief.

Since you want to use the example of wow, which is fair, since it's a popular MMO and one might learn from it. The data are
End of vanilla - 5 millions subs
End of TBC - 11 million subs
End of Wolk - just under 12 millions subs
Currently in cataclysm - just under 10 millions subs

So you might look at data and say wolk has the highest subs, must be the most popular, the better formula, i think it's wrong.
You were right the first time in saying that Wotlk had the highest rate of subscriptions, and lets be honest as far as game developers are concerned this is the only statistic that matters. As far as the best formula I have yet to see any game that provides equally for all factions of a playerbase with any satisfaction, they all tend to lean one way or the other. Swtor in my opinion has come the closest to providing for solo, non raiding, & raiding players it's just unfortunate that the raiding content has not been sufficiently difficult enough to keep us busy between patches.

Quote:
Look at the delta, the increase in population, by the end of TBC, wow has reach 11 millions, a very high delta, with no sign of slowing down. A this point of time, no one could predict a peak at barely 1 more million. The sky was the limit, 20 millions, 30 millions why not, whose to say it was impossible.
Every game has a saturation point, online subscriptions for a particular genre of games will only go so high. Future players will come from younger generations and at some stage older generations will leave. I believe achieving 12 million subs (and a good percentage of those were Chinese at a lower sub fee) was a significant feat in itself.

But yes I think that TBC was the pinnacle of Wow, best raids over all 4 expansions, introduction of arena combat, and flashpoints with extremely challenging trash that required constant CC. In fact the boss fights werent that difficult but the trash was unforgiving.

Quote:
But in WoLK, Blizzard made very dramatic change to the game. Easy heroics, done in 10-15 minutes, easy naxaramas raid, showering the player base with epic item, litteraly drowning in them. Also, a badge system that always make obsolete the previous tier once a new tier comes out, well deep, profound change in the PVE progression path.

Results, the ever increasing on subs came to a near screeching halt, stagnate and finally drop a little toward the end of WoLK.
That would be one way to look at it, another would be to say that the MMO genre had reached saturation point. The important factor was that subs remained at 12 million for the life of the expansion except for the last 3 months. This was due to no new content added after ICC for 12months and Ruby Sanctum was quite unpopular. Compared to Cataclysm which had a 30% drop in subscriptions within the first 3 months Wotlk would have been considered a success.

Everything you said above is correct but it was also popular, the greater majority of the playerbase who would wait in a RDF queue for 40 min (dps) liked the fact that they could complete their heroic flashpoints within 15 - 30min.

Quote:
How do you have an increase of subs?
- you get new players
- you keep the current player in game.

This is were WoLK failed. Where he keeps getting newer player (the so called wrath babies), it coudn't do what its predecessor could, retain players.

that is why i think WoLK was a semi failure and vanilla/TBC a tremendous success.
This is purely through your own perspective, why?
Because as a raider who worries more about others have vanilla & TBC kept epics out of the hands of the average player and most casuals. It made you feel epic and better than everyone else.
Wotlk changed this, yes the badge system handed out epic gear equivalent to raid gear without the set bonus. Some players no longer felt like special snowflakes, and it created an uproar amongst the most vocal of the forum trolls. What made TBC the best expansion was it's content, not it's attitude towards players deserving of rewards. But in terms of providing the greater majority of players with a feeling of accomplishment through gear progression Wotlk was miles ahead of other expansions and Blizzard now recognise this. If they didnt the developer who created Wotlk wouldnt be the lead designer on their new project "Titan".

Quote:
The Moral (thanks for reading me). I believe as human being, we need goals, we need objective difficult to achieve to keep us going. Making slow but tangible progress towards it, that's what keep us interested.
No arguement from me here, the above is a very important point.

Quote:
There is a need, even for casual, for a difficult flashpoint. Something they would say, i did it, i beat lost island. Now that's something.
For some non raiding & casual players, yes
But we need to put HM LI into perspective, apart from the Aratech Ice quest you wouldnt run HM LI. Considering that HM EV & KP and the first 3 bosses of SM EC are all easier than HM LI and offer better rewards theres no plausible reason to run HM LI. Some players do runs for the accomplishment but i'd bet my last bottom dollar most run them for gear progression its what MMO's have become all about.

I'm all for HM LI difficulty, but there are alot of players struggling with it. For them the reward needs to equal the effort, and considering it is more difficult than HM EV & KP I see no reason why the rewards shouldnt reflect as such.

But it seems that you and I will have to agree to disagree, i've seen what mechanics that exclude the "average" player can do to subscriptions and I dont want that to happen here. Swtors let down in it's first 6 months has been different to Cataclysm as it lacked alot of fundamental components from other MMO's that players have come to expect. And for raiders it's operations lacked any real sense of challenge until recently

NoxiousAlby's Avatar


NoxiousAlby
07.12.2012 , 07:17 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by JeffKretz View Post
Just to add my voice to the pot.

I'm a new mmo player (been playing RPGs/other pc games for 25 years but never an mmo until TOR). I was drawn in as a Star Wars fan. I was convinced to try this because it was solo-friendly and I had no interest in joining a guild, doing endgame content or anything. My plan was to do the storyline quests for the 8 classes and stop.

So.

I've somehow changed into someone who likes the endgame content, HM FPs and the raid progression. I've been pugging HMFPs since 1.3 dropped and having a blast meeting new people etc, etc. etc.

I personally find HM LI very difficult and have not yet made it past the first boss.

However, I have no desire to have the difficulty adjusted in any way. I'm looking forward to getting my Columi MH when I eventually finish it. And as a Commando dps, I'll be very happy when that happens. pew pew pew

Instead, I will read strategies for fighting that boss, learn my class better, become a better player. Sooner or later I will win and feel like I accomplished something, and continue on with harder ops.

Just my $0.02.
Stick with it Jeff, you'll get there in the end and yes pve end game content can be alot of fun. I suggest you join the SM EV & KP dungeon finder if you have the time to sit and play for an hour or 2. it will help gear your character faster and once you learn the fights (which are all easier than HM LI) do the HM versions. It will gear you in Rakata gear much faster and help with HM LI.

I just wish that for players like yourself who are determined and putting in the effort to try and clear this new content the rewards were more inline with current difficulty in the game. As I said above you will gear your character faster, easier, and more efficiently pugging HM EV & KP than you would HM LI.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
07.12.2012 , 07:30 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by NoxiousAlby View Post
Your being a little simplistic, so lets put things in perspective.
If we look at successfull MMO's in terms of subscription rates WOTLK would be amongst one of the highest subscribed games. Although the Heroic Instances were easy and provided little challenge for experienced players most were runnable in 30min or less.
If we go further back in time to vanilla wow or TBC heroic 4 mans were generally run by raiders as part of gearing your characters for entry level raids.
Over the years (7 in wow) the mentallity of end game content has changed, players that once never participated have become avid participants with the introduction of the dungeon finder. Non raiding players now expect to be able to complete flashpoints/instances as part of their end game content, it's what they are paying for. As for wiping mistakes will always be costly, over the years i've seen more wipes on trash accidently pulled or incorrectly cc'd than n boss fights. So no, I wouldnt expect any HM flashpoint to be wipe free in terms of mechanics.
Given the addition of campiagn tier set Rakata is no longer the "top raid gear", so what I am saying is that HM flashpoints should be doable within 30-45 min (unless theres a wipe) by the average player in an unfamiliar group. Even if the flashpoints drops 1 piece of redundant raid gear, the first boss only drops Columi and is without doubt more difficult than any encounter other than those in HM EC.

Ideally the perfect situation would be to leave HM LI alone and not adjust the boss mechanics, but I would have each boss drop Rakata. Why? For those of us doing it weekly we dont need the drops so they are of no significance but for players struggling it will provide incentive to keep trying. Players having difficulty need to adopt a raiding mentality when running this flashpoint, unlike other flashpoints or instances (in other games) HM LI for some players will be a work in progress and for this reason I would have the rewards provide them with the dedication to keep trying.


-------


Sorry but that is old school mentality
Anyone playing MMO's for the past 7+ years have seen flashpoints/instances become easier as developers realised that they became end game content for some casuals and non raiders. Blizz tried to reverse the trend in Cataclysm and we all know how successfull that was with subs bleeding to an all time low within the first 3-6 months. For players unwilling to dedicate time to a specific raiding schedule and hours each week flashpoints will always be their game of choice. Many have families and jobs, they just want to come home & do a few runs before logging off, for this reason flashpoints need to be easier than raids. As raids should provide a couple of months worth of dedication and keep players occupied between content.


If there is one thing I have learnt over the years is that players who dont raid never will, some players dont want to join a random 8 man experience even if they have the time. And honestly who can blame them? Posters bandy around terms like "bads" and have an intolerance towards others. We see it everyday in general chat regardless of what games you play. For this reason players who run 4 man content will only ever run 4 man content and the assumption that heroics or HM is a prerequisite to raiding is false.
Considering we have had no new T1 content since Dec 2011 I would expect many dedicated 4 man players would have tried to run the T2 flashpoints it's natural progression. Some have enjoyed it, others have become disillusioned and frustrated.


If you had bothered following my conversation you would find I supported leaving it alone, but was in favour of improving the reward to provide greater incentive to players struggling with it. Really make it worth their while comming back week after week just to try and down 1 boss at a time.
I would like to highlight that HM LI is easily doable in 30 minutes without a wipe. The key here is the "without a wipe" bit. Most people's complaints relate to the large period of time spent in the FP due to wipes.

Honestly, most of the mechanics (Sav-Rak aside) are: don't stand in the fire and interupt the big attack. They aren't the toughest, the difficulty comes from combining them both and making >50% of the battlefield fire. Lorrick has fun mechanics with his stachel charges and Sav-Rak is really awesome and unique.

Loot is fine. You get Rakata chest (otherwise from HM Soa) and Columi mainhand (otherwise from SM Karagga). TWO(!) pieces of equipment you could only otherwise get from Ops. You also get 2 more Columi pieces. Now time investment to get those 3 Columi and 1 Rakata piece would be 1 LI run (30-45 mins) OR 1 HM EV run, 1 SM KP run and 2 HM FP runs.Total time: 3-5 hours. LI HM COULD stand to drop Columi comms instead of Tionese crystals but that is the ONLY change that should be considered.