yes. It's plenty for EV and KP. Both story and hardmode. If your group is good and knows optimal rotations/mechanics, it'd be fine for EC story, and nightmare of EV/KP.

I'm not sure I'd go quite this far (it depends how overgeared the rest of the group are) but it is definitely fine for any of the HM FPs and HM EV/KP. The Nightmares... you can probably carry one person in BM through them but I'd definitely prefer taking them on one run through HM first to teach the mechanics and pick up a few bits of Rakata.

yes. It's plenty for EV and KP. Both story and hardmode. If your group is good and knows optimal rotations/mechanics, it'd be fine for EC story, and nightmare of EV/KP.

Story EC, even in 8, is a challenge for anybody who hasn't been before. A full group of players in full Battlemaster gear would be less preferable than Rakata/Black Hole geared players.

It's good enough, but I wouldn't take someone in battlemaster to an operation. The columi gear is a representation that you have done enough pve content, shown the minimum amount of competency required to progress into the hard mode content. It's about more than just the numbers.

I just am looking to do story ops with battlemaster. I am just wanting to skip the dailies and their mods and focus on getting the rakata implants. I will be getting full columi for HM ops.

Doesn't matter. I'd rather take a fresh 50 in blues and greens over someone in battlemaster. It's the principle of the concept, not the execution of the means. That's what EV was tested with anyway.

I agree. PvE is a different mind-set than PvP, while still skill based, skill is not all it takes to be a good raider. All good raiders have skill, not all skilled players are good raiders.

IS full battlemaster good enough for story ev and kp and also hm's?

Gear requirement for HM FP's (except LI) and EV and KP SM:

Level 50 Greens & Prototypes. Best without having done any of them a Recruit set.

Gear requirement for HM EV and KP:

Mix of Columi and Tionese. Battlemaster also works.

You're good to go for hard mode.

I agree. PvE is a different mind-set than PvP, while still skill based, skill is not all it takes to be a good raider. All good raiders have skill, not all skilled players are good raiders.

Raiders are horrible players by default usually. Most clickers are found there because they can get away with it. I've never seen a good PvP'er have trouble learning to raid. Can't say it's the same the other way around though.

Please do not get into an assumption war regarding PvPers vs raiders, often they are the same people.

IMHO,

Many People who would call themselves PvPers are also good raiders.

IMHO,

Many people who would call themselves raiders are also good PvPers.

I can understand people wanting to see raid pieces on potential raid members, they remember how they personally learned to raid.

As the Guild Leader/Raid Leader for a fully SWTOR progressed group, I am going to say something that a lot of you "hardcore raiders" might not want to hear.. The Hardcore PVPers make much better raiders than pvErs. They (pvpers) think faster on their feet and have better situational awareness, and actually know what all those buttons on their toolbars do. Also, if you have full battlemaster/war hero, by all means, you are welcome in my raids. That means you've spent at least 2-3 weeks casually or 1-2 weeks hardcore earning the comms to buy the stuff.

I just pugged myself into a republic side raid last night on my gunslinger (full war hero, 0 T/C/R). Guess what? According to SWMONITOR I was the highest DPSer out of the 4 with an average sustatined DPS of around 1200, and 1 of them was a mix of rakata/columi with all of the rest of them in columi with very little tionese... So please, you PVE'Raid'Elitists, step off of your perch and get back down to reality. PVPers make better raiders. /End of discussion.

Story EC, even in 8, is a challenge for anybody who hasn't been before. A full group of players in full Battlemaster gear would be less preferable than Rakata/Black Hole geared players.

Certainly. Rakata and Black Hole gear is definitely better and all operations and flashpoints are going to be tricky for people who have not done them/know them. I would not really want a group of all battlemasters as that indicates nobody has done it before, but in terms of gear, it's not bad.

EC especially is very hard on people who do not know the mechanics. It has a lot of "derp" checks, although there are some tricky burst DPS checks as well.

As the Guild Leader/Raid Leader for a fully SWTOR progressed group, I am going to say something that a lot of you "hardcore raiders" might not want to hear.. The Hardcore PVPers make much better raiders than pvErs. They (pvpers) think faster on their feet and have better situational awareness, and actually know what all those buttons on their toolbars do. Also, if you have full battlemaster/war hero, by all means, you are welcome in my raids. That means you've spent at least 2-3 weeks casually or 1-2 weeks hardcore earning the comms to buy the stuff.

 

I just pugged myself into a republic side raid last night on my gunslinger (full war hero, 0 T/C/R). Guess what? According to SWMONITOR I was the highest DPSer out of the 4 with an average sustatined DPS of around 1200, and 1 of them was a mix of rakata/columi with all of the rest of them in columi with very little tionese... So please, you PVE'Raid'Elitists, step off of your perch and get back down to reality. PVPers make better raiders. /End of discussion.

You sound pretty elitist yourself, you know.

Certainly. Rakata and Black Hole gear is definitely better and all operations and flashpoints are going to be tricky for people who have not done them/know them. I would not really want a group of all battlemasters as that indicates nobody has done it before, but in terms of gear, it's not bad.

 

EC especially is very hard on people who do not know the mechanics. It has a lot of "derp" checks, although there are some tricky burst DPS checks as well.

You're making an assumption that BM geared folks haven't done the ops before. Realize that for a lot of folks, BM stats are much better than Tionese and therefore they're overgeared for SM EV/KP.

Also realize that there's enough level 50 alts out there wearing full BM that probably have mains that have completed all the ops already so know the fights. I would hesitate profiling people based on the gear they are wearing. All Rakata gear means is someone entered an HM:EV/KP at some point in time and won a drop. It doesn't mean they're good, or if they were carried or not.

Don't "bar" people from your groups based solely on gear (I'm looking at the folks that want a gear check in the group finder), but talk to them instead and see what their experience is.

You sound pretty elitist yourself, you know.

I'm merely trying to point out that gear doesn't make the player good. But good gear makes a good player better.. And just because you see somebody in full battlemaster/war hero does NOT mean they haven't done the raids before. It may indicate they have not done the raids on that particular character before, but not necessarily that they have never done them. So the next time you leave that Battlemaster player out of a raid and you end up wiping because your fully tionese geared teammate, stop and think for a moment if you made the right choice.

As the Guild Leader/Raid Leader for a fully SWTOR progressed group, I am going to say something that a lot of you "hardcore raiders" might not want to hear.. The Hardcore PVPers make much better raiders than pvErs. They (pvpers) think faster on their feet and have better situational awareness, and actually know what all those buttons on their toolbars do. Also, if you have full battlemaster/war hero, by all means, you are welcome in my raids. That means you've spent at least 2-3 weeks casually or 1-2 weeks hardcore earning the comms to buy the stuff.

 

I just pugged myself into a republic side raid last night on my gunslinger (full war hero, 0 T/C/R). Guess what? According to SWMONITOR I was the highest DPSer out of the 4 with an average sustatined DPS of around 1200, and 1 of them was a mix of rakata/columi with all of the rest of them in columi with very little tionese... So please, you PVE'Raid'Elitists, step off of your perch and get back down to reality. PVPers make better raiders. /End of discussion.

BRAVO!!!!! Well said!!!! PvPers require much more skill. If you think he is wrong, try it. If you have the skills to earn Battlemaster Gear, you probably have enough skill to raid successfully.

Personally I do both PvE and PvP and notice my concentration must be at my max during PvP to optimize my performance.

Are really talking about PvP vs PvE? If anyone recalls, I didn't say anything about PvP. When I talked about good players not always being good raiders, I meant not every skilled player of the game shows up on time, doesn't cause drama, knows how to lead, etc. I meant nothing about the skill difference between PvP and PvE.

As far as "clicking". When talking about hardcore raiders, there is no clicking. That does not go on at the high-end level. I've played with plenty of raiders who are bad at PvP, and I've played with plenty of PvPers who are bad at PvE. It's not a 100% skill transfer. I've played with very good PvPers who didn't understand that you don't need to be constantly moving in PvE. I've played with PvPers who don't understand that certain abilities or rotations don't have a use in PvE. You can be good at both things. Acting like every single skilled PvPer is better than a skilled PvEer is just ignorant. Often times, the two are one and the same. If you're THAT good on a high end level at one or the other, most likely you'll be good at the other one as well.

Please do not get into an assumption war regarding PvPers vs raiders, often they are the same people.

 

IMHO,

Many People who would call themselves PvPers are also good raiders.

 

IMHO,

Many people who would call themselves raiders are also good PvPers.

 

I can understand people wanting to see raid pieces on potential raid members, they remember how they personally learned to raid.

I couldn't agree more with this.

BRAVO!!!!! Well said!!!! PvPers require much more skill. If you think he is wrong, try it. If you have the skills to earn Battlemaster Gear, you probably have enough skill to raid successfully.

 

Personally I do both PvE and PvP and notice my concentration must be at my max during PvP to optimize my performance.

Earning Battlemaster gear is not hard. Earning War Hero gear is not hard. Any person who can throw themselves into a WZ and complete it enough times will EVENTUALLY get full BM or WH. It's inevitable. It might take way longer, but eventually they'd get there. The same does not go for PvE. A person can run with a group of people on any boss, but if the skill isn't there, you won't get it down, unless you're being carried by people who have the skill.

I guess I can understand the mindset behind wanting people in good gear, yet in my opinion full battle master is over geared for SM and decent for HM. I think it is more the person behind the character over the gear. If a person does not know how to play the class they will not make good raiders or pvpers.

I do not think a person should be excluded based only on their gear. For example, I have one character fully decked out in rakata gear, took a long time to collect as I was in a casual guild. I have done all the FP's over and over and over, haven't we all! I really did not want to do the FP grind on my second character, I will do them if asked by a guild-mate, yet I rather PVP as I have found it to be very fun, this is the first game I ever pvped out of all the mmo's I have played. I know the strats for the OPS and I know how to play my character, yet I'm in battle-master, does that mean I should be excluded from an OPS?

You're making an assumption that BM geared folks haven't done the ops before. Realize that for a lot of folks, BM stats are much better than Tionese and therefore they're overgeared for SM EV/KP.

 

Also realize that there's enough level 50 alts out there wearing full BM that probably have mains that have completed all the ops already so know the fights. I would hesitate profiling people based on the gear they are wearing. All Rakata gear means is someone entered an HM:EV/KP at some point in time and won a drop. It doesn't mean they're good, or if they were carried or not.

 

Don't "bar" people from your groups based solely on gear (I'm looking at the folks that want a gear check in the group finder), but talk to them instead and see what their experience is.

The post you quoted was in response to doing EC. A group of all BM geared people is going to have a very hard time with EC, regardless of having done it on another character. A single person in BM gear (or a few) can do EC with a decent team around them. A full team of BM people leaves very low margins for error. Also, while we've taken mostly BM people into EC (and other difficult ops) before, I would never suggest doing it with a PUG player you're not sure of.

Tionese gear doesn't even enter into the equation on EC, it's just not going to cut it.

Also, there is always going to be a certain person who sucks and just can't do it. They're not really relevant to the conversation as their gear doesn't matter if they fail all the "derp" checks.

The post you quoted was in response to doing EC. A group of all BM geared people is going to have a very hard time with EC, regardless of having done it on another character. A single person in BM gear (or a few) can do EC with a decent team around them. A full team of BM people leaves very low margins for error. Also, while we've taken BM people into EC (and other difficult ops) before, I would never suggest doing it with a PUG player you're not sure of.

 

Tionese gear doesn't even enter into the equation on EC, it's just not going to cut it.

Apologies, I quoted the wrong thing. As I said in my post, gear-wise BM is more than enough for the OP's question which was EV/KP story mode. My real concern with this line of questioning is the type of gear score/check profiling that occurred in WoW and that folks are asking for in the PTS threads with regards to the group finder. I simply encourage discussion with the player more than just looking at their gear.

Apologies, I quoted the wrong thing. As I said in my post, gear-wise BM is more than enough for the OP's question which was EV/KP story mode.

Definitely, I'd even say it's plenty for both EV and KP hard modes.

I'm merely trying to point out that gear doesn't make the player good. But good gear makes a good player better.. And just because you see somebody in full battlemaster/war hero does NOT mean they haven't done the raids before.

EXACTLY!!!! I see many guys geared out and they still don't have the skill set to PvP or PvE successfully.

Definitely, I'd even say it's plenty for both EV and KP hard modes.

Agreed.

EXACTLY!!!! I see many guys geared out and they still don't have the skill set to PvP or PvE successfully.

Also agreed.