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War Hero relics post 1.3 for PvE?


MouldyCrow's Avatar


MouldyCrow
06.17.2012 , 08:46 AM | #1
I guess most people will have seen the proposed changes to relics post 1.3.
http://dulfy.net/2012/06/13/pts-1-3-...tech-adrenals/

Am I wrong to think that these are BiS for some classes in PvE dps? e.g:

2x War Hero relic of boundless ages
41 endurance
57 expertise
113 power

plus add an augment for
18 power
12 endurance

schnopsnosn's Avatar


schnopsnosn
06.17.2012 , 09:16 AM | #2
Well they're definitely better than the Matrix Cubes.
It could be that the combination of proc-relic + WH Relic oBA will become BiS for a Sorc.

JamieM's Avatar


JamieM
06.18.2012 , 06:40 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by MouldyCrow View Post
I guess most people will have seen the proposed changes to relics post 1.3.
http://dulfy.net/2012/06/13/pts-1-3-...tech-adrenals/

Am I wrong to think that these are BiS for some classes in PvE dps? e.g:

2x War Hero relic of boundless ages
41 endurance
57 expertise
113 power

plus add an augment for
18 power
12 endurance
Yes they'll be BiS for most DPS ACs - from a damage perspective they're better than the Campaign dps relics (on use and proc ones). I will miss the extra 40 endurance on the Camp relics although the new aug slots will make up for that.

On a related note, I'd hope that BW make similar changes to the current Campaign relics as shelling out 200/400 daylies (I bought both dps relics due to the proc relic damaging the shield generator in Stormcaller + Firebrand encounter in EC) for those relics which are no longer BiS is seriously dry.

Underpowered's Avatar


Underpowered
06.18.2012 , 09:33 AM | #4
I'm not sure if having TWO WH relics is better than 1 WH relic + Campaign proc relic for certain DPS classes - in particular, Sages/Sorcs running full Balance/Madness.

TL;DR version:
2 WH power relics yield 78 kinetic damage, 48.26 internal damage in 4.5 seconds...for Balance Sages/Madness Sorcs
1 WH power relic + 1 Campaign internal proc relic yields 39 kinetic damage, 143.704 internal damage in 4.5 seconds...for Balance Sages/Madness Sorcs

The theory:
+113 Power = 26 bonus damage to all attacks.
Every below will take into account the 4.5 second time frame in between Campaign proc relic lockout durations.

So assuming all my dots are up in that 4.5 sec span of downtime for a Campaign proc relic, a WH relic would give me
+26 kinetic damage from 1 full TK Throw (3 sec channel, 4 ticks)
+13 kinetic damage from a half TK Throw (3 sec channel but only 1.5 will squeeze in the 4.5 sec timeframe, 2 ticks, so (26/4)*2)
+5.2 internal damage from 1 Weaken Mind tick (I believe Weaken Mind ticks once every 3 sec, so an 15 second WM means 5 ticks, so divide 26 by 6)
+4.3 internal damage from 1 Sever Force tick (6 ticks)
+14.63 internal damage from 4 Mind Crush ticks

So 39 kinetic damage and 24.13 internal damage in total from one Warhero Relic power bonus in a 4.5 second span. Double these numbers if you wear two Warhero Relics (78, 48.26)

Meanwhile, wearing one WH relic and one Campaign proc relic (let's choose the internal damage one for demonstrative purposes) will net you:

39 kinetic damage and 24.13 internal damage every 4.5 seconds, plus a 30% chance to deal an additional 184 internal damage to target on damaging attack, which can only occur once every 4.5sec.

Now TK Throw hits once every second (0sec, 1s, 2s, 3s). Mind Crush ticks/hits every second. So for a Sage, every second you get at least 2 damaging attacks in.

Weaken Mind and Sever Force are usually casted back to back, so factoring the GCD the two of them tick 1.5 sec apart. If we assume that Sever Force will tick at 0sec of the 4.5 sec duration, that means Weaken Mind will tick at 1.5sec. Fast forward a little bit, and Sever Force will also tick again at the 9sec mark.

This means that under a hypothetical and ideal situation, at the beginning of every 4.5 time period, at the 0sec mark I get three damaging attacks. At 30% to proc per damaging attack, the likelihood of at least one triggering the proc relic at 0sec is (1 - 0.343 = 65.7%). By the 1.5 sec mark I get another 3 damaging attacks in. The odds are decent that the proc relic will fire every 4.5 sec (65.7%), and very good that it will fire off at least every 6 sec (88.2%). In any case, if the Campaign relic has a 65.7% chance to fire every 4.5 seconds, I believe we can deduce that it will deal 65.7% of it's total damage every 4.5 seconds on average, so 119.574 internal every 4.5 sec (can some hotshot mathematician confirm if these arguments are valid?).

So the 1 Campaign proc relic + 1 WH power relic combo yields, in 4.5 seconds:
39 kinetic damage, 24.13 internal damage + 119.574 internal damage, so
39 kinetic damage, 143.704 internal damage

While 2 WH power relics yield in 4.5 seconds
78 kinetic damage, 48.26 internal damage

So the difference is -39 kinetic damage, but also almost +100 internal damage (and we all know that internal damage is subject to far less damage reduction than kinetic, so I would say in general 1 pt of internal > 1 pt of kinetic).

So my rough and non-peer reviewed calcuations show that 1 WH power relic + 1 Campaign proc relic > 2 WH power relics for Sages/Sorcs running full Balance/Madness due to the high frequency of damaging attacks.

However, for slower-hitting classes like say, DPS Powertech or Marskman Sniper, 2 WH relics may be superior to mixing relics like I stated above. I know Watchman Sentinels/Vengeance Guardians have quite a few bleeds, so a combo might be better for them. Additional theorycrafting by these classes would be greatly appreciated. I also need someone to review my calcuations for Sages/Sorcs. Thanks.
Malchelosse / Dany Stormborn / Daney Stormboner , Elite Warlord Sage of many names
---
jedi covenant, formerly from canderous ordo, formely from juyo server

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
06.18.2012 , 12:32 PM | #5
makes the matrix cube useless

i hate how pvp'ers get everything handed to them for just pressing a button every 20 mins

CitizenFry's Avatar


CitizenFry
06.18.2012 , 01:01 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by schnopsnosn View Post
Well they're definitely better than the Matrix Cubes.
Oof, yeah, pretty sure 113 power is better than 66 mainstat + 27 crit rating...113 defense or shield is DEFINITELY better for tanking than 59 mainstat + 21 defense. Hopefully BW realizes this and weights the PVP relics more towards Expertise or something, because.... yeesh.

Guess I need to resume grinding out WZs on my PVE characters.

edit: actually, even the Champion relics are an upgrade over the Matrix Cube. :/

Karasuko's Avatar


Karasuko
06.18.2012 , 08:57 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
makes the matrix cube useless

i hate how pvp'ers get everything handed to them for just pressing a button every 20 mins
Source for the matrix cubes being useless? i heard they're getting a buff.

If the WH relics are getting changed you can bet your bottom dollar that the pve ones are probably getting changed aswell. If not someone will ahve to do the math on the "clickies" to see whether or not theyre worth the effort.

Just incase ill just go click my button every 20 mins till we get a definitive answer.

schnopsnosn's Avatar


schnopsnosn
06.18.2012 , 09:47 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Karasuko View Post
Source for the matrix cubes being useless? i heard they're getting a buff.

If the WH relics are getting changed you can bet your bottom dollar that the pve ones are probably getting changed aswell. If not someone will ahve to do the math on the "clickies" to see whether or not theyre worth the effort.

Just incase ill just go click my button every 20 mins till we get a definitive answer.
The upgraded Willpower-Matrix Cube looks like this:
56 End
66 WP
27 Crit

Old MC:
50 End
58 WP
24 Crit

pureeffinmetal's Avatar


pureeffinmetal
06.19.2012 , 05:57 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by MouldyCrow View Post
I guess most people will have seen the proposed changes to relics post 1.3.
http://dulfy.net/2012/06/13/pts-1-3-...tech-adrenals/

Am I wrong to think that these are BiS for some classes in PvE dps? e.g:

2x War Hero relic of boundless ages
41 endurance
57 expertise
113 power

plus add an augment for
18 power
12 endurance
Yes I'll be using two of these.

On a side note, Main Stat Augments > Power Augments.
Fallschirmjager
Lightning Sorcerer
<Rapture>
The Shadowlands (Formerly Shadow Hand)

Ewgal's Avatar


Ewgal
06.20.2012 , 04:05 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Underpowered View Post

So my rough and non-peer reviewed calcuations show that 1 WH power relic + 1 Campaign proc relic > 2 WH power relics for Sages/Sorcs running full Balance/Madness due to the high frequency of damaging attacks.
It is something to test by 20 sec and then 5 min of each on an Ops training dummy when the patch 1.3 goes live. The two WH relics may give Balance/Madness Sage/Sorc better burst over the 20 sec, while the one WH and one campaign proc relics may work out better for sustained dps over longer encounters.
May the farce be with you