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Anyone agree that MMOs trying to attract casuals killed the community?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Community Content
Anyone agree that MMOs trying to attract casuals killed the community?

Ellvaan's Avatar


Ellvaan
06.16.2012 , 07:01 AM | #21
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Rafaman's Avatar


Rafaman
06.16.2012 , 10:19 AM | #22
Well... I think that TOR has had a broader appeal from the outset. Many who have played and are playing this game were not MMO fans previously. They came here based on their experience with KOTOR. And therefore, they could be categorized as casual gamers, despite the fact that they may be in fact very devoted to gaming and the Star Wars genre of games in general. I know many who fit this mold and they are great for the community and the game in general. They came in with very different expectations than the hardcore elite and are very satisfied with what they have found. I think they added to a silent majority of players that continue to play this game and enjoy it immensly.

My point is, these casual players came to this game for the solo experience but have found a community. And more importantly, many have found this foray into MMOs a very positive experience from a gaming perspective and have moved in to the multiplayer endgame aspects quite easily. They are as a general rule much more patient and contribute to their respective communities a great deal more by helping others and fostering goodwill. They appreciate the game a great deal more as they aren't tainted by what has come before.

I make these generalizations based on my own experience with friends that are now MMO fans as a result of this game and other people I've met while playing TOR. I think these casual gamers break the negative stereotypes we so often reinforced by the hardcore elite. I welcome them and hope this trend continues. It makes our communities stronger and the game much more enjoyable.

My apologies for another wall of text, but I do want to add one more thing. Not all hardcore MMO gamers fit the usual stereotype. Many don't have that elitist entitlement we see so often here. They help. They teach. They get their guilds through the more difficult content and provide yet another level of enjoyment and entertainment. The hardcore gamers in this sense are very necessary. They push the content and the overall level of gaming forward so that content has a level of difficulty that requires a team approach which of course only improves the community.

But there are the hardcore elite whose self serving needs and entiltlement foster a very negative gaming experience. They could careless about the community in general. Communites serve them and not the otherway around. I could do without them... if they unsub for whatever reason, I don't view this as a negative.

BTW, I think this game is only now actually finding its true fan base.

Jenzali's Avatar


Jenzali
06.16.2012 , 12:42 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafaman View Post
My apologies for another wall of text, but I do want to add one more thing. Not all hardcore MMO gamers fit the usual stereotype. Many don't have that elitist entitlement we see so often here. They help. They teach. They get their guilds through the more difficult content and provide yet another level of enjoyment and entertainment. The hardcore gamers in this sense are very necessary. They push the content and the overall level of gaming forward so that content has a level of difficulty and that requires a team approach which of course only improves the community.
This.

"Hardcore" has nothing to do with playtime or attitude. It just means you want to push your character to its limit and meet all the hardest challenges in the game. Most of the responses in this thread seem to be indicating that "hardcore" means that they are condescending to others. There's a word for that, you know, and it's called being a "jerk". One can be a jerk regardless of how much or little they play or what their skill level is.
Dashto Vant - Arsenal Mercenary - The most dashing bounty hunter in the galaxy.

Mistress_Ivi's Avatar


Mistress_Ivi
06.16.2012 , 01:50 PM | #24
Some games, like SWG, the gear was easy to get... it required 2-3 people, several days grinding parts making parts and putting it together, once set up... could crank between 3-14 suits a week of mods.

It worked a charm.

The problem with games like this, is that you have to play some kind of lotto with the resources or go out to very specific spawn points ... taking forever.
Then you have *all* the good stuff needing some kind of massive grind in flashpoints, heroics, raids... the name really doesn't matter.

The only thing(s) that should EVER be in end game content, is vanity and bragging right items. Such as that silly hat off the slug. Things like that, work. The elitist crowd get their amazing rewards, looking silly or better than everyone else... whilst even the lowly 'casual' can still get the same gear.

The other issue is that everything from a flashpoint, binds. That really doesn't work. It only annoys people and in some cases, loses subs. The elite crowd end up getting spares... and the casual crowd who never get an invite go without - for good.
The entire point of an MMO is to have fun, to reach fun goals. You want challenging, good. But don't stick unfairly amazing gear at the top of the mountain - stick a funky pair of pants or a really cool slick gun.

How cool would it be, if they added a storymode hard (8 player) drop that was a rip on the "worms 2 Bazooka" ? That a Trooper could get... the stats would be normal for an Assault cannon, but, only the elite could get that funny looking thing.

Anyway, I'm a firm supporter of the casual crowd - you need them. They bring in money, which is goal 1 of any company in the gaming industry. Goal 2 is to make sure to come up with more money making ideas. Goal 3 is their own pockets. Goal 4... maybe the customer, after the company.
Former SWG Player and Bloody Proud of it!

darkrixx's Avatar


darkrixx
06.16.2012 , 08:25 PM | #25
i personally enjoy challenges in games i enjoy trying to fight a boss with 20 or so different people and barley making it out alive but i also hate putting in 7 hours a day for 2 weeks to get one rare item there is a fine line between a grindy game and a game that u can beat while not loocking at and i personally think swtor ht the nail on the head.

they both made really difficult tasks for a player to strive to overcome but made it well enough that u would come back to it again and again when play for a hour or 2. things like the epic boss fights cater to thoughs who love a decent challenge and the compelling enough for casual gamers to keep coming for more even at some of its grindyist times this is why i love this game and look foward o seeing what way it goes

Xemnas: the great devourer of worlds, destroyer of light, and eater of cookies
attara: the grate tatitian of assinations

SajmanPeetee's Avatar


SajmanPeetee
06.16.2012 , 08:45 PM | #26
MMOs putting restrictions on the amount of players that can participate on an encounter is what has killed community. Bad players with good attitudes have been pushed away because it's too much of a burden to try and carry them through content.

Before when there were no caps, bad players could come and if they died it was okay since there were an infinite number of spots. Now bad players have to sit out which segragates them and ultimately makes them quit.

Thats why all you see in todays modern mmos is good players and bad players that think theyre good. The bad players that know they are bad are gone, forever burried by a genre that places difficulty above enjoyment.
Kyree - Sentinel Kayza - Sage Reyku - Assassin
The Fatman

Drakinor's Avatar


Drakinor
06.16.2012 , 09:02 PM | #27
While the OP makes some good points he also doesnt seem to understand reality. I agree with some things you say like bosses that are VERY difficult and have tasks that are VERY challenging, but at the same time I understand the "casual" side of the game. I am married, have children, work, go to school etc. Should I be excluded from MMO's to sate your epeen? Game companies say "No." I was at one point "hardcore" I played A LOT had plenty of top endgame gear, very rare equipment etc but that was years ago. The truth is the target audience for these games are typically ages 18-35. While a very minor portion of that has the time to be "hardcore" the vast majority work, have families, go to school etc.

Gamers are aging, people who have money to pay for subscriptions typically have to work and in the current economy typically work a lot. While I do understand the distaste for "faceroll" content these companies have to find a balance that suits the widest array of players to keep the game profitable. Why would they spend millions on a game with a very small profit margin just to keep a handful of "hardcore" players happy when they could make a game thats for a broader audience and make a much much much larger profit. Simple economics.

Now onto this whole "hardcore" and "casual" nonsense. What do you think is a "hardcore" player and a "casual" player. Even with my busy life I tend to get at least 20 hours a week of play time in if not more. I consider myself fairly casual. I know that there are some who call themselves "hardcore" that will spend over 100 hours per week in game. Theres only 168 hours in a week, thats a HUGE portion of time, and if you take out sleeping 6 hours a night that leaves122 hours. Therefore in order to play 100 hours a week you have to only work part time, sleep less than 8 hours and literally spend all your time not working or sleeping playing. MOST people do NOT do this. So think about the reality of it. I agree things should be more challenging and there should be things in game for hardcore and casual players but the problem youll have is people whine, at extreme length, when they feel segregated. Welcome to the modern world of "I deserve, I want, I need, everything that everyone else has that I dont"
"The commander stands for virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage, and strictness" Sun Tzu

Sonovsam's Avatar


Sonovsam
06.16.2012 , 09:05 PM | #28
What's killing the community is the reduction in group and raid size and shoehorning every character into 1 of 3 roles (healer, tank, dps).

IMO, EverQuest had the right formula.

For groups and raid sizes, groups were 6 people and raids had 72 people. A lot of people look at that raid size and think "OMG, You could never get enough people for that!" Yes, you can. We did it in EQ BEFORE there existed the plethora of tools there are today. The problem with the reduction of raid sizes from 72->56->40->25/10->16/8 is two fold:
1) you end up with a lot of little guilds that have extremely short life spans and small rosters with undependable people. When raid sizes were larger, guilds were huge; you could always count on having more than enough people to meet the needs for a successful raid.
2) Boss mechanics become severely limited due to lack of people to achieve ancillary goals. For an example, look at the Plane of Time and Dragons of Norrath raids in EQ.

Character Roles
Every game is falling into the trap of limiting roles to Tank, Healer, or DPS. Those are great for primary focus, but there is a third aspect of Utility. For example, in EQ, you had Bards that could provide very limited raid buffs, pulling, CC, and corpse retrieval (you didn't rez with your gear, you had to recover your corpse). There were necromancers that provided damage and gave mana to healers. There were druids that provided healing and kiting.

Due to a lack of utility abilities, fight mechanics become one-note and bland. For another example, look at the Kessdona The Enlightened fight in EQ: you needed a ranger, bard, or druid with skill in Tracking to track a specific mob to kill. Kill the wrong one and you make the fight harder.

Razdek's Avatar


Razdek
06.16.2012 , 09:07 PM | #29
Im a casual gamer and have been for years... You clearly have no idea what a casual gamer is. I have always found that hardcore gamers are ruder and much more arrogant than casual gamers. I would say elitism kills and seperates communities. Casual gamers just wantto have fun...

Drakinor's Avatar


Drakinor
06.16.2012 , 09:19 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Razdek View Post
Im a casual gamer and have been for years... You clearly have no idea what a casual gamer is. I have always found that hardcore gamers are ruder and much more arrogant than casual gamers. I would say elitism kills and seperates communities. Casual gamers just wantto have fun...
This. I think definition one is about right to the TRUE meaning of it : http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...hardcore+gamer. In this case me, and a lot of people I know are "hardcore gamers" but I have notice that in MMOs most self proclaimed "hardcores" are elitists, rude, arrogant, pompus, etc. This thread is an exaggerated example of what "hardcore" mmo players believe themselves to be: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=479649

If you believe your more deserving than other players simply because you are more "hardcore" then I would have to say your arrogant, pompous, and have an extremely high sense of entitlement and would simply advise you get over yourself. If you consider yourself "hardcore" because you would like more challenge or a higher quality content then I would have to agree with you most of the time.
"The commander stands for virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage, and strictness" Sun Tzu